Episode #12 "Seaside Terror" with Horror Author Sarah Langan

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Lovely
You come to me when I'm lonely, I take it and we go home. You cover me with your you with my love.

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Sasha
Sarah Langen is an American horror writer. The New York Times Book Review calls her new book Good Neighbors, a disturbing and mordantly funny new novel. Publishers Weekly calls Good Neighbors a sharp, propulsive novel, pulling off a maximalist variation on suburban gossip gone wrong. And book Paige calls the intricate and edgy good neighbors a descent into a depraved suburban drama that is perfect for fans of Tashfeen Demetrios, Rebecca and Stephen King's style thrillers.

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Sasha
In today's episode, Sarah Lang and talks about how she played demonic possession as a kid and her Brooklyn brownstone haunted house. Now, at this point, I've heard lots of ghosted and synchronistic stories, and yet I am haunted by the stories. Sara shares of her family's near catastrophic experience at the sea, an unfolding spatial manifestation and the all encompassing love from those who have passed over, who remain with.

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Sarah
Us.

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Sasha
To settle in. Turn down the lights and get ready to meet one of the most gifted horror writers working in fiction today.

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Speaker 4
I'm Sasha Graham and this is Ghost Stories.

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Sarah
My name, Love. Lovely.

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Sasha
Hi, Sarah. Welcome to Ghost Stories by the Fire.

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Sarah
Hi. Thank you. Glad to be here. I'm so.

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Sasha
Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you. So I'm very curious. Did you grow up with a family or in a household of people that believed in ghosts and spirits? And did you have a tradition of telling ghost stories with each other?

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Sarah
So, no, but in a way, yes. Because very staunchly Roman Catholic. So there was like reading the Bible at the table at dinner sometimes. And, you know, Jesus rose from the dead and like Lazarus was kind of a zombie. So there were those stories, but there was no, like anything else would have been considered heathen.

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Sasha
wow. So they were so strict Roman Catholic. Yeah.

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Sarah
Yeah. I mean, there were Jesuits, so they understood evolution was real. But yeah.

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Sasha
Interesting. So when you were a little kid, what scared you the most?

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Sarah
I think I was afraid of I was afraid of vampires. And I was afraid. Yeah. Like, I think. I think the thing about religion, especially, like, when there's magic in your religion, is like you believe in magic. Even if. Even if it's not part of the belief system of that specific religion. So I was sure that, you know, anything could happen.

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Sarah
yeah. So the nuns told us you could be possessed. So I remember reading The Exorcist when I was in sixth grade and see and watching it and like, that's a crazy movie and asking my parents. And they were like, Well, we didn't want to make you a believer. So yeah, we told you it was real. And my nuns, because I went to Catholic school, they said it was real and religious education teacher said it was real.

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Sarah
And I was like, I think they're all wanting me. But maybe it's real and it could happen any time. And because, like what they said at the time is like, was it a true story? Was a boy who happened in Canada. The names have been changed. legit. That's what they told kids. And that yeah, the perversity of Satan is that Satan would go after anyone any time possessed you.

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Sasha
So? So they were literally using The Exorcist as a teaching.

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Sarah
You know, like I went out and found this stuff, like everybody else was like, I don't know what the hell she's talking about. Like, I just like Christmas. And I was like, Wait, my God, I heard of that. This thing and question And like, they'd be like, We can't say no, you know? And I was like, Man, I was like, Maybe they're all liars and there is no God.

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Sasha
So would you would you, like, lie awake at night? And because I used to, I shared a bedroom with my sister and I, and I was in the top bunk. And I would always like, like, scare myself by peeking down at her, wondering if her eyes would open and glow red. Like if she would become possessed. Like, what would I do?

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Sasha
Did you have were you more afraid that you were going to get possessed or that someone in your family might be possessed?

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Sarah
I think my best friend, Mary Beth and I used to play that We were possessed sometimes and it was like super fun and Mike. But I was more afraid I would be possessed because then you don't know, right? It's like you're missing time. Did you ever read the book? Sybil I remember reading that in eighth grade, and I'm so freaked out because, yeah, you would never know.

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Sarah
You'd like. You'd think that you were a normal person, but really, you had 18 personalities.

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Sasha
And maybe, maybe, maybe we do. We'll never know. I always think about that. Like, yes, at the end of your life, right? What if it's, it's all been a joke or it's all been a dream? Or like, you've.

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Sarah
Just been.

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Sasha
Who you would never, ever, ever know. But wait a minute. So you and your friend, like other kids, were playing Charlie's Angels and we.

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Sarah
Also played Charlie's Angels. They were just one of them in the rotation. You know, I love them.

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Sasha
Like in a way, though, like, speaking of magic.

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Sarah
You're.

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Sasha
Literally I mean, talk about like they they tell, you know, kids or people don't play with Ouija boards. You're opening up, you know, a space where you can converse with spirits or whatever. But I've just never heard of anybody playing exorcism.

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Sarah
well, so when you were at slumber parties and the crack in on your shoulder or squeeze an orange on your shoulder, crack and egg on your head was all the same stuff.

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Sasha
Why do you think why do you think teenagers love to do that stuff? Because I haven't. I mean, I'll stay up in and read tarot cards all night long with my friends, and we'll definitely, like, do spirit boards and stuff. But. But those are my tarot friends, right? They're not like my regular girlfriends. And I remember just loving that stuff when I was a teenager.

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Sasha
Why do you think that is?

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Sarah
I think it's a kind of questioning and self definition then. And I think the biggest question is like, do we exist? Why are we here when we die? Is there an afterlife? Like, those are the real questions, you know, And they're the universal ones. And I think when you're younger, you sort of believe what you're told, if you're told anything.

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Sarah
And then when you hit adolescence, you're like, this story I heard about, you know, God welcoming me with open arms and we're all the same person were unchanged, except we're unified with God. That's a Catholic thing since crazy. And, you know, I think a lot of of kids are trying to figure out what that is, what the real thing is.

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Sarah
And it's like I wouldn't even call it a form of rebellion. I just call it curiosity.

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Sasha
Yeah. And I think that's the fun thing is to I mean, just thinking about being a teenager and and doing like Ouija boards light as a feather, stiff as a board, all of that stuff.

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Sarah
It to me.

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Sasha
The space around those evenings feel so highly charged in a very unique way. Do you know, like. Like anything could happen? And I think in a way, it's like watching horror movies or like reading horror books, you know? And and I think it's interesting because there's a connection to sacred space and and and ritualistic religions, which is to to create a space vis a vis candles and incense and architecture, music.

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Sasha
So that people walk in kind of on heightened alert and are ready to either now receive something, a teaching or a learning. Did you attend church regularly as a kid?

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Sarah
Yeah, Yeah, I did until I think seventh or eighth grade. And it just wasn't for me. I thought it was, you know, I, it, it ceased to make sense to me though. I appreciate it. Like, I respect other people's organized religion. It just, like, seems to make sense for me.

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Sasha
And were you fascinated by the end of days?

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Sarah
So I thought it was all nonsense. Like, honestly and like, I pretty quickly went from, like, interested in the occult to, like, it's all bullshit. So I really felt like it was just a tool used to control people.

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Sasha
So have you ever lived in a haunted house?

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Sarah
The house my husband and I bought in Brooklyn when we bought it. Like we went to look at it on a tour. You know, there's those, like, whatever, open houses. And there were these white sheets, like, stapled really hard, like in these different parts of the house, like against walls. And it would be like stuff was coming out and it was all tucked under these sheets and they told me not to touch the sheets.

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Sarah
And I looked under the sheets and it was every floor. It was all four floors. And under the sheets were altars and yeah. And we bought it anyway. And it was like it was a really cheap house. So we bought it. And, and at the time the reason was like it was there was, there was, it was a mess and my husband had to leave town the day after we signed for the house.

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Sarah
So I got the keys and went in and there were bloody fingerprints on the ceiling of the basement and where those altars had been. We're now just like, like the carbon, you know, the burnt carbon black stuff from, from fires, you know, that they whatever offerings they'd had on dumpsters on every floor. And I clean that off and I was like, I don't know, it seems fine.

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Sarah
And my next door neighbor was like, So that was a church. And I was like, Tell me more. And and he was like, and he was like, I was like, like Santeria. And he was like, No, so much weirder than Santeria. It was a dark church and like a bunch of people in white robes used to come in and they would go to the basement, they would kill a chicken, and then they would come out with all like bloody necks but haven't changed clothes.

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Sarah
So they'd all gotten their whole bodies bloody with the chickens in the basement. Like, this is a crazy story. And you know, I was going to answer the story this way. I don't remember if I told you this. And so I was like, Holy crap, I'm so freaked out. And then I realize, like in the back yard there was like someone had written in the concrete, like, I'd say mad, mad, mad something.

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Sarah
It was just soul. And there was like a pentagram and like, that is really crazy. And like, I was like, Yeah, I'm kind of the perfect person for that because I'm so arrogant. I'm like, Yeah, there's nothing here. I'm like, you know, like, that's the story you want to write is this person is just like, you know, they're literally being haunted and just can't believe it.

00:13:04:00 - 00:13:28:12
Sarah
So. So yeah, I mean, all that was happening and my writing group at the time, like, I was like, I'm kind of lonely. I'm in the middle of nowhere because I know from like downtown Brooklyn to Crown Heights and like, this was the four people lived in Crown Heights, and so they all came out, this woman, Rhody Hawk and Dan Brown, but Broad Sage, they're both are writers, like just some sage.

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Sarah
So I was like, okay. And then my husband was like, Get your stuff the rabbit you've always wanted, and then you won't be lonely. So I got a rabbit and nothing that ever happened in that house.

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Sasha
Where were you? More afraid to find, to, like, turn and see a vampire at your window? Like Salem's lot? Like. Like scratching to get in or like, vampires, like, under your bed and in the closet. Like, what were your vampire fears?

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Sarah
I think. I think under the bed and in the closet. Like, it wouldn't have occurred to me, you know, because you'd hear them coming in the window, right? I like, I was like, they're not going to trance me like I'm not letting them in. I love it. Like those shapes. When you'd wake up, you'd be like, What is that in the corner?

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Sarah
What's coming for me?

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Sasha
Salem's Lot scared me. So it was this. It was the window. And I stay up until, like, I don't know. Up until not too long ago, I was still really. Do you. Are you ridiculously afraid of anything? Like, right now? Like in your present life?

00:14:42:14 - 00:14:55:28
Sarah
I think sometimes at night when I go to sleep, especially my husband's away. They're like, in the next room. Like, I'm afraid someone will come in for the kids and I'll sleep through it.

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Sasha
That's and that's that's a legit real fear. And at that, at the live ghost stories by the fire, so many people that get up and share stories are about like warrior moms, like taking on peeping Toms or like knowing something was going on when nobody else believed the mom are like, there's just so many like bad ass mom stories that get shared.

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Sasha
There's nothing more. I think it's it is a particularly harrowing experience when you're alone in a house with the kids or with your child or children.

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Sarah
Yeah. One time I came down the stairs in Brooklyn and a guy had gotten in the house and was going through the mail on the table. I don't know. I think he was crazy more than a robber, but he wouldn't get out. He was like, Can I talk to someone about a job? Not you, lady. And that leaving and I charged in to get out of my house and like, cause my kids toys were everywhere and I was just like, you're in, you're in the zone.

00:16:05:12 - 00:16:25:05
Sarah
This isn't happening. And I, I just charged him and he ran and ran him out and then was screaming on the stoop. And like, my neighbors all came out and they thought maybe they need to help me. And then they were like, we don't need to help her. Like laughing. How long did it take?

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Sasha
How long did it take you to go? That's one of those my gosh. There's one of those things I think so many people imagine. You never know how you're going to react.

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Sarah
Well, I mean, I was like I as soon as I saw him, I was like, no, you're not supposed to be here. And I was like, What do you know? As soon as he wasn't answering the questions, he was just standing his ground. I was like, This is a guy like, this isn't going to be a conversation. I'm just coming at you like a nut.

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Sarah
Like a nut, you know? And he was like, Whoa, okay, I'm out.

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Sasha
So have you ever you ever had contact with a ghost or with someone who's passed over to the other side?

00:17:09:00 - 00:17:30:09
Sarah
My dad died almost six months ago, like six months and two days ago. And he was painting when he as he found out he had his diagnosis, one of the series of paintings he was working on was like an ocean against rocks. And they were beautiful. And when he died, I took the majority of his paintings back to Los Angeles.

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Sarah
And there's one that's hanging in our dining room that's like this ocean and these large rocks. So my family and I went on a trip to Eureka, California, and it's it's Northern California. And then I forget the name of the town, but there's an oceanside town that's a little further north of that. We were staying there and it's beautiful.

00:17:54:23 - 00:18:24:28
Sarah
It's like I'd say it's as pretty as Maine, like like coastal Maine, really beautiful. And with the weather's rough and cold. And so we were at a sandbar. We walked to the ocean and we were among these rocks. And I would say that the water coming in because it was a sandbar, would have been like 2 to 3 inches deep.

00:18:25:00 - 00:18:45:21
Sarah
Right? That's how deep it was. And I was with the girls. My husband was walking around and then the friend, the other dad, we were traveling with was was with me and the girls between these rocks. And we were sort of talking, I don't remember exactly. And then suddenly water filled up like I was like, Whoa, you guys, you guys.

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Sarah
And I was wearing like a vest. It was cool that the girls were there and and the water was over our heads between these rocks. And, like, I was walking toward them to, like, heard them back. And it shook us like a washing machine. And, I mean, it's scary to even talk about it. So my older one, she's 14, you know, I found out later, was holding on to my little one, my 12 year old.

00:19:15:17 - 00:19:48:09
Sarah
I couldn't keep holding on and let go. And so we were all underwater. And and I got up when I was over and I looked you saw my older one, and I said, Where's Frances? And we we didn't know. And we turned around. And then that dad was a little further out and had grabbed her and they were standing there and there's so many ways I tell myself it was no big deal, nothing bad was really going to happen.

00:19:48:09 - 00:20:20:01
Sarah
But I really think that was I feel that he saved her life. And, you know, these rocks, it was just carrying everything right back out to sea. And her head was headed toward the rocks when he got her. And we were just shocked. We were all just shell shocked. Like we just and everyone was exhausted. It was like this like just this crazy, crazy man of adrenaline had run through all of us nuts.

00:20:20:03 - 00:20:44:25
Sarah
Like we all had to take naps, like we walked back and just exhausted and that night I dreamed I saw my father and he was with only his back. And it was just sad. I was super sad. And he said, I'll always be with you. And in my dream. And I was like, Good, you're not dead. You can be my dad.

00:20:44:25 - 00:21:11:10
Sarah
And then but then he kept walking and I was like, No, he's dead. But he's saying, You'll always be with me. And then in the morning we got back and we looked at that painting and a painting looks exactly like we were where we were standing when it happened. Exactly. The two rocks bag and this water rushing in.

00:21:11:12 - 00:21:38:13
Sarah
And you just a three series painting a flat. You know, there's a thousand ways I could tell myself it's a coincidence, and maybe it is. But the feeling I had was wonderful when we put that together and it felt everything about it felt like the most incredible luck. You know, It was not like, you know, sometimes you think, I over reacted.

00:21:38:13 - 00:21:52:28
Sarah
It was this was really morally dangerous. I don't know how we got ourselves in that situation. Like, it was shocking. It went from like two inches to way over our heads to just like, fooling around.

00:21:53:01 - 00:22:12:03
Sasha
Wow. Thank you for sharing. That's terrifying. I mean, I just the ocean story, it's it's it's it's equally terrifying and touching that that's literally when the ocean is something that that that terrifying. I mean, first I know something I just that I just can't imagine. I just can't imagine.

00:22:12:05 - 00:22:31:19
Sarah
I mean it was I had the other dad, his face, all of us. We just were so shocked. You know, It was like we thought this was nothing. And then suddenly it was one of the most dangerous things that could have happened, the most dangerous thing that could have happened to.

00:22:31:19 - 00:22:47:27
Sasha
Any of the things that you write ever coming true. Have you ever written about an imaginary place and then found yourself there or. I don't know. Has anything ever come through for you that.

00:22:48:00 - 00:23:09:07
Sarah
You know, I wrote about a sinkhole and good neighbors and then on a cul de sac and then a sinkhole. Did appear on our cul de sac, the bottom of our hill in Los Angeles. Yeah, much how much time.

00:23:09:07 - 00:23:10:17
Sasha
Elapsed between.

00:23:10:17 - 00:23:37:10
Sarah
Which I think I sold the like it was like six months after I sold the book, something like that, maybe a year before the book came out. The sinkhole. And that was. Yeah, but I think often, like, I'm working through things and I think the mind, the subconscious is smarter than the conscious conscience in a lot of ways.

00:23:37:10 - 00:23:59:24
Sarah
And so I think a lot of the times those things really do come true. However, it's because you were working toward them in your work to a discovery that I wasn't working toward a sinkhole yet there was.

00:23:59:26 - 00:24:18:17
Sasha
Do you do you ever, like, freak yourself out when you're writing and like, I don't know, and like a story or a thing? I'm like, you know how things will pop into your mind? Like, do you ever scare yourself?

00:24:18:19 - 00:24:44:29
Sarah
Yeah. I mean, I sit like I kind of my memory of previous work is, is, is. Jim, I've written some really horrific stories, but I don't really remember the experience of them anymore. It's been so long ago. So I can speak to the last two books and with good papers, I kind of was frightened of my my auntie hero a little bit.

00:24:44:29 - 00:25:17:06
Sarah
And I think I think the revelations of who she was and I think the revelations of like what middle age was were kind of scary to me, which is that, you know, you sort of have these ideas of who you are and how everything should be. And those ideas can sometimes create damage in themselves and they can make you a worse person in a way that feels monstrous and shocking.

00:25:17:08 - 00:25:37:04
Sarah
You know, I think, you know, whenever you go, wait a minute, I was the villain. It's a terrible feeling. It really is. But like denying that you just, you know, you really are going to hell if you're if you deny that because there's no coming back from lying about it. So you have to go. Well, I guess I guess I was bad.

00:25:37:07 - 00:25:43:14
Sarah
I guess I was wrong. And I hate that feeling. The worst so bad it.

00:25:43:17 - 00:26:01:18
Sasha
Said, What if one of the big things that I that I do my dark wood tarot is all about shadow work, right? So I it's kind of I always find it horrifying when when you kind of cop to maybe like how much of a dick you are, how wrong you've been or how cool you've been or how like God awful you've been.

00:26:01:20 - 00:26:10:24
Sasha
But then I find this incredible freedom once I get over that, like really uncomfortable harm. And I feel like, ah.

00:26:10:26 - 00:26:36:27
Sarah
So it's not so bad. Everybody is kind of a dick sometimes. Yeah. yeah. And it can be funny and it can be, it can be something you can even laugh about. And it doesn't make you a bad person. But I think that's I think you have to get through a real level of maturity to come to that place where like being a jerk, being doing wrong things doesn't make you bad.

00:26:36:29 - 00:26:39:20
Sarah
It just makes you human.

00:26:39:22 - 00:27:01:21
Sasha
Just makes you human. But to your earlier point about being possessed, right is is that idea that our our own blindspots not realizing how atrocious we can be or watching someone else like your antihero who you know, someone who doesn't realize how much of a monster they are.

00:27:01:24 - 00:27:15:21
Sarah
Yes. I think that's I think that's a fear. I think that's probably my biggest fear is this lack of self-awareness. I'm sure I know there's tons of blind spots and it's like and it's very disconcerting.

00:27:15:23 - 00:27:21:04
Sasha
Do you would you say that you have a very active dream life?

00:27:21:07 - 00:27:22:02
Sarah
Yes.

00:27:22:05 - 00:27:29:19
Sasha
I has anything crazy ever. But other than like, what's some of the craziest things that have happened in your.

00:27:29:21 - 00:27:56:20
Sarah
So I have recurring dreams and recurring characters in my dreams. It's like I'm like, Who will I see tonight? So the couple, when I was a kid, I dreamed I was on an island and there were monsters off the island, you know, in the ocean. But in order to get off the island, I had to figure out how to get through the monsters.

00:27:56:22 - 00:28:37:20
Sarah
And like, I learned to befriend the monsters. And then I liked the island and. And then. So when I was in my twenties, I went to being I was really sick, like I had some kind of autoimmune thing, but I think it was from toxic exposure and was sick for a couple of years. And I couldn't like I was trying to keep my life together at the same time and that like it was, you know, it was the horrible inflammation of my entire respiratory tract was very painful.

00:28:37:23 - 00:29:02:15
Sarah
And I was still trying to like keep my apartment going, keep my job going, keep my vest and all this stuff. And it just was so hard and I didn't know how to make it work. And I just didn't know, like, I just felt completely done undone. And I just was like, how? And this I couldn't figure out answers externally.

00:29:02:15 - 00:29:25:23
Sarah
Like, I think it was a little too much. You know, no one knew how what to do and I remember I had this dream where this woman I was sitting in a lawyer's office and this woman was dressed impeccably and very put together, like ten years older than me and was like, everything's going to turn out fine. You're going to be okay.

00:29:25:23 - 00:29:44:29
Sarah
You just have to concentrate on taking care of your health and getting your writing done and that's it. And just let everything else go. And I was like, Yeah, sure. And she's like, I have this for you. I'm taking care of everything. And I was like, Okay. And then it was her. She was me. She was I looked at her and I was like, This is me in ten years.

00:29:44:29 - 00:29:57:21
Sarah
This is me. I'm looking at me. And she was like, And it's okay. And so she has come to me in dreams a few times and wow.

00:29:57:24 - 00:30:04:24
Sasha
So at this point, do you recognize her when she shows up? Are you like, hi, or does she surprise you?

00:30:04:26 - 00:30:29:08
Sarah
And she surprised you every time? Yeah, but it was probably the best dream I've ever had because I woke up and it's like, it's okay, you know, and it will be okay. And like, I'm going to live, you know, because I was a little worried about that. And so and it was.

00:30:29:11 - 00:30:37:27
Sasha
That is so cool. that is that's incredible. Well, do you have anything else.

00:30:37:29 - 00:30:38:06
Sarah
Or.

00:30:38:06 - 00:30:40:25
Sasha
Creepy That. That.

00:30:40:27 - 00:31:08:02
Sarah
Yeah. The story is that it was the summer before I left for college and I was sleeping and I woke up and, you know, you look into the your room and it's dark and like a shape emerged from the far side of the bed, like the other side of the room. And it was a box, looked like a tissue box.

00:31:08:04 - 00:31:35:12
Sarah
And it's floated closer and closer to me. And its head was like a demonic head, you know, it was like this terrible. No. Yeah. Yes. So it was like this. It was like a jack in the box head. Only it was like staring and angry and it was like coming at me and I was paralyzed. I was like, my God.

00:31:35:12 - 00:32:03:10
Sarah
And maybe it wasn't a night. Terror might have been something like some switch flipped is going to happen. And like, sort of, like, especially in those adolescent years, like your neurology, where you sort of a dream comes into your waking life. So but whatever it was, it came at me and I was like, goddammit. And I just started swiping at her until it receded.

00:32:03:12 - 00:32:21:00
Sarah
But it didn't go away. It just receded backward. It been. And I was like, I'm out. And like, I left the room and I stayed in the bathroom for like an hour. And then I went down and wait until like dawn. And then I was like, dead. This thing happened. And he was like, he just looked at me like, okay.

00:32:21:02 - 00:32:29:26
Sarah
And I was like, Mom, this terrible thing happened. And she was like, And it took me like a couple of days before I would sleep in the bedroom again.

00:32:29:29 - 00:32:31:06
Sasha
I don't blame you.

00:32:31:11 - 00:32:39:26
Sarah
I don't think I would go back. well, I was 17. 17.

00:32:39:26 - 00:32:42:05
Sasha
You were not like not even like a little kid.

00:32:42:05 - 00:32:48:03
Sarah
Like, Yeah, I remember this well, like, and like.

00:32:48:05 - 00:32:49:07
Sasha
What do you think it.

00:32:49:07 - 00:33:11:07
Sarah
Was? You know, at the time? You know, I can only say what I thought it was at the time and the time I thought it was real. It thought it was something coming for me and it didn't want good things for me like, like it was coming. So. And it was scary to me.

00:33:11:10 - 00:33:23:24
Sasha
It's so great. But that begs the question why if something and wants to do you harm, why would it wait until you were looking right? If you had been, like, asleep? Like what? You know, like.

00:33:23:27 - 00:33:33:01
Sarah
It said, here's the question. Maybe it's been doing harm all this time and now it's finally coming out, right?

00:33:33:03 - 00:33:44:28
Sasha
Yes. Like out of your body, like energetically. Like it's leaving you. Who do you believe that energy can kind of attach itself to a person?

00:33:45:00 - 00:34:16:28
Sarah
Probably. Probably. I mean, I don't know. So can you will things and they affect other people, I don't know. But I think you can Well things and they affect yourself on a conscious or subconscious level. Yes. But then again, I also think that I think energy is a real thing and I think that it has effects. And I think thoughts, collective thoughts may have real, tangible results.

00:34:17:01 - 00:34:23:21
Sasha
Definitely. I would I would definitely agree with you on that. Have you ever practiced witchcraft?

00:34:23:23 - 00:34:32:26
Sarah
No, because I think it's insane. But why we back that up?

00:34:33:00 - 00:34:36:12
Sasha
Why do you think witchcraft is natural?

00:34:36:14 - 00:35:12:00
Sarah
I actually like I don't know. I think I don't know that it would make much difference. I think it's probably the same as, like, meditation or it's the same as, you know, targeted thought or prayer. You know, I don't know. I think it's probably fun. I you know, I'm writing so much all the time that I think, you know, maybe that's my witchcraft.

00:35:12:02 - 00:35:43:27
Sasha
Yeah, I would I would agree. I would agree with that. I it and I think it's interesting, you know and you're you're your new book A Better World, which takes place in the not so distant future. Right. What I what I think is interesting I heard somebody say that maybe maybe it was Carl Yang. If you pay attention to what artists and writers are, you know, they pick up on what's happening before it's manifested in the world, right?

00:35:43:27 - 00:36:09:09
Sasha
Like, certainly when we're looking at the future, we're wondering, my God, what could it be like? But it feels to me like if I don't know, it's almost like when when zombies became, like, a huge thing, right? And zombies were everywhere, movies, TV and like, it was like people couldn't get enough, like, you kind of knew, I think everybody kind of or not everybody, but you have an idea that something's coming, right?

00:36:09:09 - 00:37:01:03
Sasha
And sure enough, it did. And it has, you know, unfolded recently, the pandemic and certainly seemingly being like teetering bits of chaos due to social media and and and all of that stuff. So so I think one of the interesting things about witchcraft and about writing is oftentimes with witchcraft or shamanic work, if the practitioner is moving into a space where they're looking at the energy of something before it's manifest in the world, I think that's exactly what an artist or a writer does, is is because that's the space that you're you're taking something that is not here yet and bringing it into actual physical existence.

00:37:01:05 - 00:37:41:25
Sarah
I agree with you on that. And I think that it's the same way with when you're an individual person and you say the worse version of something, you know, and you decide to believe the worse version of something you're creating that you know, And I think there's power to thoughts and words in that way, too. And I don't know, I think there's Bradbury's story, the Toynbee conductor, about it's a short story and it's about how the world became a better place because everyone heard about the Toynbee conductor.

00:37:41:25 - 00:38:06:02
Sarah
If I'm remembering this right, I'm remembering the theme better than the facts. And and like the world was in a terrible place then they heard about this discovery, this time machine that told them that this thing was going to happen, the world was going to be okay. And then so everything was okay. And then the time comes. This discovery was supposed to happen and the guys like, I made it up because the world needed hope, you know?

00:38:06:04 - 00:38:24:11
Sarah
And I think, yeah, I think you can create reality because of the stories you tell and you can also pick up on reality and be telling them sooner too. I think those both those things are true.

00:38:24:13 - 00:38:57:15
Sasha
Do you ever feel like when you're when you're working, you're you're rubbing up against the energies or entities or. I'm not talking necessarily about when an idea pops into your head that you're like, I don't know, but do you ever feel like, I don't know, in doing research or in the writing itself, do you ever have moments where you feel like you're bumping up against something distinct and separate from you, an energy or consciousness?

00:38:57:18 - 00:39:31:14
Sarah
I think I probably have. When I worked on The Keeper, there's a chapter that felt like I was in communication with something and then with a better world. Like I have this idea and I there's certain things that you don't want to say out loud because they're too awful. But it seems to me that there will be the detonation of a nuclear weapon at some point.

00:39:31:16 - 00:40:00:17
Sarah
And so in a better world, I say that there is you know, this is this is it's happened in the world. It's it's happened in the Middle East. And like superstitious Lee, I called it the place of Babylon, like in Alaska. Babylon And as I was going over copy edits, I was like, I felt like I was like I just didn't know if it was wrong to do it.

00:40:00:18 - 00:40:32:20
Sarah
Like maybe the coming up against the entity of myself of like, is it wrong? Was what I was doing wrong to even say this was going to happen, which like I know is maybe being a little too overly scrupulous because people write about this stuff all the time. But for me it bothered me. And, and I also thought like, look, calling it Babylon is B.S. You know, I need to actually name the place they need to just go ahead and do it and say like, this is you know, this is an alternate world where this happens.

00:40:32:26 - 00:40:59:06
Sarah
And so I did. And it feels strange and it feels scary. And and I don't like it, but I also felt like it also felt true. So I did it.

00:40:59:08 - 00:41:23:19
Sasha
Yeah. Well and and to that point, by writing something based on a possible future with everything that we're all that people are all frightened about or nervous about, Yeah. You would have to probably have something at that level. Right, too. Yeah. That's so interesting.

00:41:23:22 - 00:41:42:08
Sarah
Well I mean I like I don't know why I worry about it so much when you see all these books on the shelf that are like. And then everyone was eating each other and the world died and they blew up the Trade Center again. Let's say these things happen back, but people love it.

00:41:42:10 - 00:41:51:00
Sasha
So I want that new movie with with Julia Roberts and Ethan Hawke about it's like a dystopian, right?

00:41:51:00 - 00:41:54:06
Sarah
I read the book, but I haven't seen the movie.

00:41:54:09 - 00:42:07:20
Sasha
you haven't. So, you know, and I don't think there's any spoilers here for if anybody hasn't watched it. But I was like, Really? You're going to blow up New York City again? Like how many times do we have to see the skyline of New York to.

00:42:07:20 - 00:42:25:01
Sarah
Strike that top? Leave me. You know, New New York is better than L.A. You, L.A. people stop with your stupid loser stories. And I live in L.A., and I can say that, like, pick on your own city. Seriously?

00:42:25:01 - 00:42:25:26
Sasha
Seriously.

00:42:25:26 - 00:42:44:12
Sarah
You should remember that happening in the book. They were probably looking for something to do, too, because I don't remember that being a part of the book. The book was like it was mysterious. The mystery was mysterious. Still. Wait. It's it's still mysterious Mystery. 30 pages later, the end.

00:42:44:15 - 00:43:06:25
Sasha
Well, that sounds like you should take a while. It's does an interesting New York geography this that movie would highly advise like watching it if it's like one. It's one of those things where they're like, yeah, we're we're we're just an hour from the city, but they're in this like, nondescript long island, like trying.

00:43:06:27 - 00:43:09:00
Sarah
Like then.

00:43:09:02 - 00:43:17:14
Sasha
My and my husband, who's from Long Island, he's like, No, they're on the baseline. I'm like, No, they're on the Atlantic. And then they go into the backyard and see the full skyline.

00:43:17:17 - 00:43:31:13
Sarah
Like none of this any whatsoever. Is this Locust Valley okay, good. So I have to ask.

00:43:31:15 - 00:43:58:11
Sasha
Based on just your experience as a human and I always these this is these are my this is my last question for ghost stories by the fire. But it's my favorite my favorite questions questions. And there's no right or wrong. We're just in your estimation and in your feeling, where do you think you were before you were born and what do you think will happen after you pass?

00:43:58:14 - 00:44:23:14
Sarah
You tell me. Yes, I. I don't know. With my husband, it's like no one freaks me out. The whole thing freaks me out. I'm like, and my husband is like, It's kind of great, though, because think about how for how long you didn't exist and it didn't bother you, but it's like.

00:44:23:14 - 00:44:27:08
Sasha
A really good sleep. You were like sleeping all of that time.

00:44:27:08 - 00:44:55:25
Sarah
Brilliantly when I get to dream perchance. But yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. I think that's the great mystery. But I. I think something. I don't think nothing. I don't think it's oblivion. So it's kind of the Great Hereafter. I don't know.

00:44:55:27 - 00:45:17:10
Sasha
I will. I will say, since you did ask me what I think, and I. And I. And this is something that I get, it brings me great peace and great. I just love it. So I'm a super skeptic and I feel like I don't want to just believe, like, obviously just when something's actually happening, I want to know it's happening.

00:45:17:10 - 00:45:44:07
Sasha
Right? And so I had never been someone who's ever actually seen a ghost. It's just no matter how much I wanted it to happen, it's never, ever happened. My husband and I were trying to get pregnant and it had only been like a month or so, and I was painting a bedroom in my loft and just like I was in that flow state, I think kind of like absent mindedly, just like with paint roller.

00:45:44:10 - 00:46:11:03
Sasha
And I swear on every member of my family's life, three beings showed up like in the corner of that room and the one in the middle without saying it, because it wasn't like I heard words, but the one in the middle picked me and then took off and I went, I'm going to get I'm going to be pregnant.

00:46:11:10 - 00:46:38:06
Sasha
Like I've been picked like they picked me. And sure enough, like I was. And we had only we had only just started. I wasn't like, you know what I mean? Like and, and I it, it just brings that and it just, I don't know, it brings and I'm like, well then there was definitely a before and there's definitely an after and who knows what it's going to be like.

00:46:38:06 - 00:46:43:09
Sasha
But I just, I just thought that was lovely.

00:46:43:11 - 00:46:55:05
Sarah
That's great. I love that. Yeah. There's something really cool about kids, you know, there's something like they open your eyes to a lot of things.

00:46:55:07 - 00:47:10:18
Sasha
wait a minute. Were your kids ever spooky when they were like, two and three? Like talking to ghosts at the window or would you and her were you like, What are you looking at, little Amelia? Tell Mommy what? Like, were you encouraging it?

00:47:10:18 - 00:47:42:14
Sarah
I, I would if it were like, a stranger, but like, and not a child because I'm so, like, I'm just. I'm always, like, grilling people for what they're thinking, you know, my own. I'd just be like, Let's go back to then and just, like, made them back to bed. But yeah, yeah. And, and they, one of them she had, I think, I think she had something I did some research online because she had night terrors.

00:47:42:18 - 00:48:15:27
Sarah
The night terrors were scary because they would alarm me and then I would try and like be like, Hey, what's wrong? What's wrong? And they couldn't this, this which was flipped where they were in dream hearing me but awake but asleep and couldn't put it all together. So it was very scary for her. And so like I learned that what I had to do was to just be like, really calm and not even actually speak and sort of just read her.

00:48:16:03 - 00:48:51:22
Sarah
She couldn't understand words, but I looked it up and night terrors happened to a certain amount of kids and it's because something isn't developed in their brain yet. They also might went to bed. They might also be bedwetter for the same reason like that, waking and sleeping. And if you don't like them, wear socks or footie pajamas. And so I banned socks and footie pajamas from our house but stopped.

00:48:51:25 - 00:48:52:24
Sarah
my.

00:48:52:24 - 00:48:54:27
Speaker 4
Goodness.

00:48:54:29 - 00:48:57:24
Sasha
We what's the connection between the footed pajama?

00:48:57:24 - 00:49:13:24
Sarah
And they can't regulate temperature in their sleep because there's some gland, right. That takes care of that for you, but it's not developed yet. And so they're not regulating their temperature and they get overheated and then something happens.

00:49:13:26 - 00:49:18:00
Sasha
That is fascinating and really.

00:49:18:02 - 00:49:18:09
Sarah
That's.

00:49:18:09 - 00:49:38:09
Sasha
Really good to know. I've my daughter had one night terror once, and that's so funny. She was where I can I remember going in and seeing and she was in her crib and slutty pajamas but like was like awake but asleep and screaming and looking past. it was it was harrowing.

00:49:38:12 - 00:49:57:26
Sarah
it's so upsetting. I remember just being, like, upset because your kids so upset and you don't know how to comment. Yeah, it's this freaking sweaty pajamas. Was Sarah.

00:49:57:28 - 00:50:00:21
Sasha
Thank you so much.

00:50:00:24 - 00:50:03:15
Sarah
For joining a.

00:50:03:18 - 00:50:21:28
Sasha
Ghost Stories by the fire we have learn get your toddlers out of the city pajamas. You never want to have to experience that. Be careful when you're walking on the beach and wow, a lot of great stuff here today. Thank you so much.

00:50:22:00 - 00:50:25:11
Sarah
thank you so much for having me. I love talking to you.