Episode #7: "Bloodthirsty Demons" with Buddhist Scholar Dr. Alex Gardner

00:00:03:20 - 00:00:28:27
Lovely
You come to me when I'm lonely. I take your hand and we go home. You cover me with your you with my.

00:00:28:29 - 00:01:04:28
Sasha
Far Eastern rituals have long intrigued the Western imagination. If you had the opportunity, would you spend ten harrowing days alone inside a sacred Tibetan cave? Today's guest did just that. Alex Gardner spent years exploring Tibet, China and India. And he holds a Ph.D. in Buddhist studies from the University of Michigan. Alex is the director of the Treasury of Lives Digital Biographical Encyclopedia of Tibet, Inner Asia and the Himalayan Region.

00:01:05:01 - 00:01:36:10
Sasha
Today, Alex shares stories of demons who drink blood from human skulls, how the Tibetan Book of the Dead acts as a road map for The Departed and his own unexpected participation in in a Tibetan sky burial. Throughout this fascinating conversation, we talk about the importance of familial myth and the power of belief. Can we truly transcend ourselves and our human body through devotional and ecstatic practice?

00:01:36:12 - 00:01:51:11
Sasha
What does it mean to truly love a supernatural being? Questions worth asking Because I'm your host, Sasha Graham, and this is Ghost Stories by the Fire.

00:01:51:13 - 00:02:01:21
Lovely
Company, The Guide.

00:02:01:24 - 00:02:06:23
Sasha
Hi Alex. Thank you so much for being here today.

00:02:06:25 - 00:02:09:14
Alex
So I'm really glad to be here. This is going to be funny.

00:02:09:17 - 00:02:24:01
Sasha
I'm so excited. So I'd love to ask you if you grew up in a house that believed in ghosts and or did you have a ghost storytelling tradition in your family?

00:02:24:03 - 00:02:43:04
Alex
We didn't have any ghosts in our house, but I had I had a best friend in grade school who. Who? He swore there was a ghost in his house. It was an old colonial in Williston, Vermont. And he he said he'd seen the ghost many times. And I tried my best sleeping over, but I never saw it myself.

00:02:43:06 - 00:02:45:28
Sasha
So you've never seen a ghost with your own eyes?

00:02:46:01 - 00:03:11:25
Alex
A ghost? I have lived in buildings where other people have said there's ghosts. I was in a dormitory, a foreign student dormitory in China, in Citra, in Chengdu. And there were all these. There was a couple. I had a Japanese friend who said that she would wake up in the middle of the night and there was this little little girl crouched in the corner, weeping, and she would see repeatedly.

00:03:11:25 - 00:03:19:00
Alex
But and then there was another Japanese woman who said she saw ghosts in the laundry room. But I never saw them.

00:03:19:06 - 00:03:24:20
Sasha
It's so that's so interesting because that sounds very much like Japanese horror. Like horror film.

00:03:24:27 - 00:03:26:29
Alex
Right, right.

00:03:27:02 - 00:03:44:15
Sasha
Right. It's always curious, you know, the things that conditioned us. I think that that that that perhaps shape how how we see the world and how we see what's happening in front of us. Did did you grow up in a family with a tradition of spooky stories?

00:03:44:17 - 00:04:04:28
Alex
We did some. My dad liked to tell sort of like around the campfire kind of stories. He told this really great story that that I still tell my kids periodically, even though they get sick of it about this lady who had such a green thumb, she could grow anything and she would she would bring her table scraps to the garden, bury, you know, like we bury our compost.

00:04:04:28 - 00:04:31:19
Alex
But then everything would grow. And so she buried some rabbit bones. And this weird plant grew up with this fuzzy kind of pod. And then a rabbit jumped out and ran away. And then one day she cut off the tip of her finger and it got lost in the dirt. And this very huge, strange, huge plant came up with this, another fuzzy sort of pod and which one day was empty.

00:04:31:22 - 00:04:45:05
Alex
And then a neighbor soon after came to her door, knocked on her door and said, how is your finger? And she held up the finger. And it was it was it was all there. So it was like, you know, the pod lady came and took her place.

00:04:45:08 - 00:04:52:17
Sasha
we didn't save it. That he knew her, that he. Or was he just telling kind of her myth?

00:04:52:19 - 00:04:59:24
Alex
He was telling her myth. I mean, he didn't he didn't have that conceit that, you know, I knew a woman once who, you know, But.

00:04:59:27 - 00:05:04:09
Sasha
And how do your kids respond when when you tell them those stories about the lady?

00:05:04:11 - 00:05:09:05
Alex
They like it. They like they like good stories. They like scary things. You know, kids today.

00:05:09:08 - 00:05:19:23
Sasha
Kids today. Now, is there something in your past I seem to recall you talking about the stories that your grandfather would.

00:05:19:25 - 00:05:38:24
Alex
Yeah, my grandfather, he was I mean, he was otherwise a very sort of regular guy, but he liked to tell this story that he could walk through trees. And he used to say that he was Superman. I guess now that I'm thinking about it. But he had this tree in his front yard that he would point to and say, I can walk through that tree.

00:05:39:00 - 00:06:01:13
Alex
And we all believed him. And it just seemed like, Wow, that's neat. Our grandfather can walk through a tree, you know, that's pretty cool. And I still, like even today, you know, it's like you never stop believing in Santa Claus, right? Or the Tooth fairy or Jesus. And, you know, like all the myths that we're told as kids, we we develop that sort of appreciation for the supernatural because we want to to some degree.

00:06:01:13 - 00:06:14:15
Alex
But I mean, I still think of my grandfather walks through trees. Okay. That kind of that's plausible to me in a weird way, because, you know, I was conditioned as a child. I was told that story enough, you know.

00:06:14:17 - 00:06:33:28
Sasha
And there's also I think, too, when you're when you're looking at your parents and your grandparents, there is this idea, whether it's conscious or not, that you share their traits. So I would imagine that perhaps being kind of in awe because that is sort of a delicious thing. I can walk through trees.

00:06:34:00 - 00:06:40:05
Alex
Right, right, right. It wouldn't you want your relatives to do that because that's very close to you and me. You know.

00:06:40:11 - 00:06:49:29
Sasha
And I wonder if in some way that has even informed your philosophy around spirituality and consciousness.

00:06:50:02 - 00:07:10:02
Alex
Yeah. I mean, I definitely I've definitely always been, you know, you believe things because you want to, right? I mean, if your grandfather tells you he can walk the tree, you love your grandfather and you admire him. And so that's an admirable trait. And so you that's a good thing. And so I like believing in things, you know, I like being open to the possibility of it.

00:07:10:02 - 00:07:44:07
Alex
It gives me comfort to some degree. And so I was always very, you know, with a healthy dose of skepticism. I mean, my dad took me to transcendental meditation training when I was 17. And so he did this whole course in meditation and the guys who gave us the training, and it's just basic concentration meditation, right? They give you a little mantra and then you just repeat it and you meditate by repeating that It's a very basic, you know, lots of traditions have this concentration of meditation, meditation.

00:07:44:10 - 00:08:03:03
Alex
So then he would he, he showed us, behind that door, the floor is padded because that's where we levitate and then he promised me, you know, once you get really good at this, you'll be able to, like, fly to the next town for ice cream. And and I thought, you know, I'm just here for meditation, training and, you know, don't sell me on that.

00:08:03:03 - 00:08:06:24
Alex
That's just that's a little much, you know.

00:08:06:27 - 00:08:16:14
Sasha
I did that is that is a whole lot. Do you think that was he speaking in a in a literally was he literally trying to.

00:08:16:16 - 00:08:38:02
Alex
I think he was trying to sell us something. And I think, you know, he didn't need to. So it fell flat. Right. I mean, we had already signed up. We wanted to learn to meditate. We didn't we weren't there to learn to fly. So I think he was just be a little over enthused tastic. Whether he believed that he would eventually be able to fly because he did this meditation, I don't know.

00:08:38:02 - 00:08:42:06
Alex
I mean, that's a that's a question for him.

00:08:42:08 - 00:08:53:28
Sasha
And, you know, you you mentioned something about loving Jesus when you were a child and very much still to this day, still great. So you were raised Christian?

00:08:54:00 - 00:09:12:26
Alex
Yeah, I was raised Episcopalian. Very sort of, you know, my the church, we went to the guy, our priest played the guitar and I mean, it was very laid back and you know, all about love and community and singing songs. And I went to church camp, but it was all about singing songs and, you know, hanging out with friends.

00:09:12:26 - 00:09:48:08
Alex
And but there is a I really, really, really like devotion practice. I really I loved Jesus. And so and I loved Jesus because it's, you know, I mean, the whole bhakti movement in India, you know, the harikrishna is and, you know, it's big in Buddhism as well, devotion. Because through devotion you transcend your self, right? You in three love if you think about it right, you you're yourself you sort of transcend the the the barrier of the concept of self another right and you become one with the beloved.

00:09:48:08 - 00:09:49:18
Alex
And that's the sort of the goal.

00:09:49:19 - 00:09:59:10
Sasha
So could you explain to to to those who don't necessarily understand or know what a devotion practice is, could you explain what, what what that's made up of?

00:09:59:12 - 00:10:24:01
Alex
Well, essentially, I mean, at least in Tibetan Buddhism, you are you you you cultivate devotion by by considering the good qualities you could be of your teacher, you know, your guru, or it could be the Buddha, or it could be a Buddhist faith or another deity. And you cultivate their good qualities and you admire those good qualities and you think, how wonderful those are.

00:10:24:03 - 00:10:46:13
Alex
I really, really love the person or the being who embodies these qualities because I want these qualities to and and ideally through visualization practices that are connected, you become one with that. You in a way you through cultivating an appreciation through those qualities in somebody else, you cultivate those qualities in yourself.

00:10:46:16 - 00:10:48:11
Sasha
Right in that space of love. Right?

00:10:48:16 - 00:10:49:16
Alex
Because you're.

00:10:49:18 - 00:10:52:25
Sasha
Right in a space of love, you're also in love.

00:10:53:03 - 00:11:16:12
Alex
Right? Right. That love is you know, you can love someone and that love person can be oblivious. That love you're creating that love in yourself, Right? And so that love can transform you into a better person, right into sort of into an embodiment of those qualities that you are that you are cultivating an appreciation for. And it can be really like it can be ecstatic.

00:11:16:12 - 00:11:34:15
Alex
I mean, it can be singing and dancing and, you know, beating your chest and saying mantras and saying prayers and weeping out of just absolute ecstasy for this, out of gratitude and and love. And it can be very transforming and an exciting.

00:11:34:23 - 00:12:21:20
Sasha
So it's so incredible. So what what I think is interesting about how you describe the devotion practice and it was something that was surprising to me when I I know you've spent a lot of time in Tibet, in Western China, in Asia and India. A lot of the ways that I work with tarot, right? The complete contemplative tarot, working with the energy of a card, be it the mother card, the father card, the lovers card, the devil card, It almost sounds like the same thing because magically, of course, if you are going to, I don't know, say work with the magician card, you're focusing on that pure energy of of everything that the magician archetype

00:12:21:22 - 00:12:41:27
Sasha
contains. And then vis a vis bye bye by focusing attention on it. Yes. Taking on those qualities for yourself. So at that was just mind blowing. I just think that that's it's such an obviously, you know, what you're talking about is a tradition that goes back thousands and thousands of years.

00:12:42:00 - 00:13:10:02
Alex
Right. Right. And it's and it's really it's it's I don't know. I mean, a to love a sort of a supernatural entity, right, to love God or Jesus or the Buddha to love somebody who's really not here in the physical sense is different somehow. And it really does help trick your mind to think this is I'm not doing this because I want that.

00:13:10:03 - 00:13:32:21
Alex
You know, you you love your lover. You know, but you want something from your lover. But when you love something that's just out there, you know, I mean, I suppose you can love God and say, okay, I want a new car now, but you know, usually when you love the supernatural, it's really to sort of is to dissolve the border between you and that entity.

00:13:32:21 - 00:14:09:22
Alex
Right. And if that entity is is, you know, because then then you're, you're less of a self and at the same time yourself expands to the size of the universe because it's, it's, it's everything and nothing. So yeah, I mean devotion practice is is I don't know. I mean, obviously it's completely different in every single religious tradition, but I went from cultivating love for Jesus and really getting into it when I was a kid and praying and, you know, singing songs and everything to then when I got involved in Buddhism, like, okay, I can just sort of move this along, you know?

00:14:09:25 - 00:14:22:26
Alex
And I what's nice, I don't have to stop loving one thing to love another, you know, you just sort of expand your pantheon because it's not about doctrine and control and obedience. It's about love, right?

00:14:22:28 - 00:14:41:20
Sasha
It's not about the physical manifestation. What something. Right? It's about the energy that I think is beautiful. And Tibetan Buddhism, I'm curious, is a devotion practice something that is done every day alone? Is it done in groups? You said that there is music and chanting as well.

00:14:41:22 - 00:15:12:14
Alex
Yeah, there's lots of different there's lots of different practices. I mean, it's a very it's a very rich tradition. So the devotion practices, there's there is a I mean, devotion is is part of your basic ritual in the sense of they call it a puja using the Indian word. Right. And so you in basic sort of Tibetan visualization practice, you know, whatever deity you're working with, you visualize that deity in the sky above your head.

00:15:12:17 - 00:15:45:07
Alex
You say prayers, you recite the mantra that you ask for for something. Right? And that and like, maybe if you're doing Vajra software practice where you're purifying the you say a 100 syllable mantra, but just to get your cyphers above your head and this pure radiant light comes down and fills your body, displacing all the impurities. And you know that the stains of your of your past misdeeds and those just sort of pour out of your body and then into the earth where they're absorbed and purified by the earth.

00:15:45:07 - 00:16:09:01
Alex
And so, you know, that's a devotional practice. It's also a very sort of intellectual practice because you're you're you're you're working with your mind to cultivate the the images, but you're working with your with your heart and your devotion to cultivate, you know, an immense gratitude towards that deity who is purifying you. And of course, the whole thing, you're doing it yourself because it's all, you know, manifestation of your own mind.

00:16:09:06 - 00:16:51:14
Sasha
So I think that that, that I think that I think that's incredible. I think it's I think it's amazing. I'm curious because you've had the good fortune to spend time in Tibet and practice in Tibet. And I think that to your point that while you're engaged in these practices, it is all of your own doing. But I certainly found that whether it be a spiritual practice or a creative practice, painting, drawing, writing, dancing, singing there, it's certainly moving into what I would call the active imagination.

00:16:51:17 - 00:17:24:21
Sasha
And that's where you move into this sort of threshold space, right? And like muggles can understand the threshold space, like sunrise, sunset, you know, midnight. These places where you're not quite sure what's real, what's not going on. And I've found that that can sometimes be a harrowing space to be in. Have you ever found yourself in a harrowing, terrifying, odd near-term space.

00:17:24:24 - 00:17:55:20
Alex
Right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, Tibet is the landscape has lots of those sort of set aside. There's all these pilgrimage destinations. Many of them are caves, you know, massive caves high up on a cliff, you know, high up in the mountains, you know, above hanging above some isolated valley. I mean, I did them. I mean, there's, you know, the sort of the the the enthusiasm of the convert, you know, was really me when I was in my twenties.

00:17:55:20 - 00:18:15:04
Alex
And so it was easy to travel in Tibet by yourself. So I went in sort of semi legally from Nepal a couple of times when I was in my young twenties. And one time I went, I said, Well, there's this massive cave meditation cave where, you know, it's connected to many great saints of the past and I'm going to go there.

00:18:15:08 - 00:18:36:22
Alex
I was doing actually, but just for practice at the time, I'm just going to sit there all day long. I rented a little gas stove. I brought a whole bunch of cauliflowers and bread and some, and I just went up and I spent ten days in this massive cave by myself, and I just sat all day long staring out the mouth of the heap.

00:18:36:25 - 00:19:15:12
Alex
And I was terrified the entire time. I mean, it was not like, you know, like people want Buddhism to be like, all about flowers and love and, you know, friendship and gentleness and and, you know, it's really terrifying when you sort of face your mind, because in your mind, there's all the demons as well, right? I mean, it's not just about, you know, smiling bodhisattvas, but it's also about, you know, blood drinking demons who embody all the scary stuff and all the violent and all the wrath and hatred and resentment and and that's all there.

00:19:15:12 - 00:19:37:19
Alex
And so this cave really felt both. I mean, it felt like that there was a temple. I mean, it was such a big cave. There was a temple inside and a dusty old sort of abandoned temple with some old clay statues and, you know, a nice deity is but also, I don't know, really dark, dark corners and crags.

00:19:37:19 - 00:19:40:12
Alex
And so I was terrified the whole time I was there.

00:19:40:12 - 00:19:45:24
Sasha
And did you see you see anyone else while you were there? Were you there alone the entire time?

00:19:45:27 - 00:20:10:29
Alex
I was there alone. But twice, two groups of pilgrims came through one group just sort of sat there and sort of watched me. Another group just sort of like went through all my stuff and like, invited me. There was another part of the cave. You would climb up this old ladder and shimmy through this sort of chimney that was all rubbed clean and it was all like you with your torching just glowed because of all the crystals.

00:20:10:29 - 00:20:30:29
Alex
And and then you came to this, this other big cavern, and they were sort of like side caverns. And some of those were said to be like the practice cavern of this. The saint called. Yes. So, Gail, who is this very some sort of mother figure in Tibetan Buddhism. And it was her womb cave. So you'd sit inside.

00:20:30:29 - 00:20:53:29
Alex
So I sat there with them and they did this practice called shared, which means cutting. And it's this incredible practice where they sing the most ethereal, beautiful songs and they visualize themselves cutting off their heads and placing the tops of their skulls on a fire. And it boils. And then they put themselves in or other things inside the fire.

00:20:53:29 - 00:21:24:21
Alex
And from the smoke and the steam just feeds all beings and all the deities of the world. And I mean, it's a it's a practice that's all about like cutting attachment to the self, right. And and offering your your entire body, your entire being as a devotional practice to, you know, the Buddhas and the bodhisattvas and the deities and all beings, all animals, all ghosts, all demons, all held beings all at the same time.

00:21:24:23 - 00:21:36:00
Alex
It's really nice. I was just sort of sitting there, you know, this 20 year old kid with these these remarkable pilgrims doing this practice all night long. I mean, it was just it went on for hours. It was magical, incredible.

00:21:36:00 - 00:22:13:02
Sasha
And to think, you know, if the goal is is to completely and eradicate the ego and the ego being the thing intellectually, that kind of kind of grounds us in who we are in this body save. I mean, so many of us, myself included, don't love change. And you know what I mean? And in any way that actually to move, you know you know to an elevation like Tibet and and and and to be working on completely eradicating everything about yourself I could imagine that's terrifying.

00:22:13:05 - 00:22:39:03
Alex
Utterly terrifying. Yeah. I mean, what are you stepping off into, right? If you step out of yourself, I mean, you're just stepping into the void, right? And so. Which is why devotion, you know, it it was really invaluable because if you feel an immense love for all beings, right? If you feel like a connection through love for all beings, then when you step out of yourself, you're sort of stepping into the arms of the universe, right?

00:22:39:03 - 00:22:57:04
Alex
Of every living creature. You know, you have that love to support you, you know? I mean, it's, you know, we all feel happier when we are when we feel love because we're connected, right? We don't feel alone. We don't feel isolated. We don't feel so fragile. So, yeah, that's why that's a key religious practice.

00:22:57:04 - 00:23:36:29
Sasha
So interesting. And I also I had when I went to Mount Everest base camp, I stayed at the monastery right there. And as you were describing that, you know, these chambers and I went into a meditation cave. It was kind of this hole in the floor of the floor, and you had to like, lower yourself down. And it, it it so I almost it almost felt to me like being on the bottom of the ocean in that it was odd because it wasn't the cave wasn't that deep, you know, it was just like built into the side of, of, of the mountain right there.

00:23:37:01 - 00:23:55:09
Sasha
But I almost could if felt like the compression of, I don't know, a rock, but it felt a bit claustrophobic even though there were beautiful, shiny artworks and coins and gems and all of these thing. Did the cave that you stayed in for how long were you in that cave?

00:23:55:11 - 00:23:56:10
Alex
Just about ten days.

00:23:56:13 - 00:24:03:07
Sasha
Ten days? Did that did it feel constrictive to you? Did it feel.

00:24:03:09 - 00:24:22:29
Alex
It was so big? It was it was such a huge cavern? No. I mean, I wish it was smaller, you know, in a way, because what was scary was like, there's tunnels back there. There's dark places, you know, who's going to come out of it? You know, anyone growing up in America, You know, I've seen horror movies, you know, I've seen monster movies.

00:24:22:29 - 00:24:25:27
Alex
So like, anything can come out of the dark at any time.

00:24:26:04 - 00:24:34:04
Sasha
Where there's mountain lions and yaks and all kinds of wild animals roaming the great. Well.

00:24:34:06 - 00:24:36:24
Alex
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

00:24:36:27 - 00:25:01:00
Sasha
Wow, That's incredible. So Tibetan culture has really fascinating death practices that I'd love for you to explain that when when when someone dies in Tibet, it's not as simple as either choosing cremation or, you know, where they want to be buried. Could you explain a little bit about Tibetan death practice?

00:25:01:03 - 00:25:22:09
Alex
Yeah, there's if you're if you're like a really important person, you might get burned on a big funeral pyre and you're you're the relics. And they sift through, sift through the ashes and find relics, you know, little pieces of diamond or little or maybe on your bone there's some mantra or an image of the Buddha for very important people.

00:25:22:11 - 00:25:44:26
Alex
Other people would get thrown into a river sometimes. But the most common is what's called sky burial. So it's you essentially feed your body to the vultures. And these vultures in Tibet are not like the vultures we have here. Like I once was. I was walking a valley on the far side. I saw this flock of sheep. I thought, look at those fluffy white sheep.

00:25:44:26 - 00:26:07:09
Alex
And then they took off into the air. They were vultures. They're so huge. So, yeah. So one time I was walking, I was staying at a monastery with I was leading a tour group, actually a well, students, a bunch of students. And they had gone up a side valley to this famous springs where there was this nunnery, and I hadn't been feeling well that day.

00:26:07:09 - 00:26:29:16
Alex
So I decided I would. I would stay behind and wake up later. Why waking up later was more made more sense than taking the car with the others? I don't know. But so I decided to walk. And so walking took me up to the main monastery driven. And then I had to go over this small ridge and then I would get on this, go out in the valley and so on.

00:26:29:16 - 00:26:54:27
Alex
This ridge is where they did sky burials. And it just so happened as I was getting to that crossing the ridge, there was a sky burial just about to take place. And so these two men were walking there, people were gathering, and these two men were walking with backpacks, which when they put them down, were folded up corpses, and they break the spine so that they can fold the legs, you know, to make it smaller, to carry on their back.

00:26:54:27 - 00:27:13:15
Alex
Right. And then they just strap it on. So then they lay out the body in this particular area. Vultures, no where to go. And in fact, there were so many vultures that they started sort of rushing the guy first. The guy what he does is he takes he takes a knife and cuts, make slices on the flesh to make it easier for the vultures.

00:27:13:15 - 00:27:35:21
Alex
And so there's like and then the vultures come and then they leave. And but the vultures kept rushing it. So he asked the nearest people to him, which included me, me and like another guy to, like, take these sticks and just sort of herd keep the vultures back. So I was, you know, this dopey foreigner who just happened to be there and just got enlisted in.

00:27:35:28 - 00:27:56:19
Alex
In herding the vultures, keeping them away from the bodies as he was making the slits. And then we stepped back and let the vultures go in. And they were just like it was a feeding frenzy. They would. They were pieces of bodies, like flying up in the air. Like I got human flesh on my coat. You know, I fractured her, and then and then he said, okay, you go in.

00:27:56:19 - 00:28:17:08
Alex
And then so we go in and we push all the vultures away. And then he crushes the bones, and then they go back in so they can get into the skull and the marrow and the vultures go back in, and then we push them away again. And then whatever's left. He then grinds it up, mixes it with flour, with temper, and then the vultures come in and.

00:28:17:11 - 00:28:37:11
Alex
And then just clean it up completely. So, you know, and then the family is there watching it. And one of the most important things that he does, as soon as the as the skull is clean, he picks up the skull and he looks at the what is it called, that hole in the skull where the three plates of the skull meet the to see if it's open.

00:28:37:15 - 00:29:03:19
Alex
Because Tibetan Buddhists believe that consciousness is ejected through the top of your skull after, you know, when you die, all your your consciousness slowly sort of gathers into the center part of your of your body as the heat sort of flows out. And and then the last thing to leave is your consciousness. And so there's this this ritual called poor transference.

00:29:03:19 - 00:29:29:24
Alex
And so sometimes you do it yourself, you can practice it. People do power. They just they practice injecting their consciousness through their to the top of their skull and then bringing it back or a lama. Once you're dead, it's sort of like, you know, what do lamas do when you die? Well, they come and they do poha they do they do the transference ritual to inject your consciousness into a pure land where it's a better rebirth.

00:29:29:24 - 00:29:56:07
Alex
It's easier to be enlightened from them. So. So the guy, he looks at the skull to see if there's a little opening. And then he shows it to the family, like, look, good news, you know, the priest did a good job or, you know, this practitioner was accomplished and was able to intentionally inject their consciousness to the next incarnation, which means that they had some control over it, which means that, you know, they got a good one.

00:29:56:10 - 00:30:09:21
Sasha
So it's so fascinating that the family would be there, too. So in all of the burials you're describing, you don't see land, air that the family is witness.

00:30:09:23 - 00:30:10:27
Alex
Yeah, of course.

00:30:10:29 - 00:30:26:09
Sasha
Yeah. I would imagine having I would imagine it changes a cultures relationship with death if it's something that you're comfortable that you grow up watching and seeing that it's not kind of hidden away or put into a body. Right.

00:30:26:12 - 00:30:43:13
Alex
Right, right. No, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, we we are so messed up in the West, the way we hide death, you know, the way we make the dead look like they're sleeping. You know, when we put them in the coffin, even if we are so lucky as to see a dead body. Right? I was lucky with my parents.

00:30:43:13 - 00:31:02:14
Alex
We saw death when my grandfather died. My grandfather lived with us when I was growing up. He died when I was six. My dad brought me down to see his body and say goodbye. And then my other grandfather, the one who walked through trees, he died when I was in my early twenties. And when he died at home he had cancer and he wanted to die in his living room.

00:31:02:14 - 00:31:20:10
Alex
So my mom was taking care of him, going down, you know, spending a lot of time there. And so she and I were he actually died while she and I were giving him a sponge bath in his living room. He had been months. He had been in a coma for months. He was we didn't think he was there.

00:31:20:12 - 00:31:42:00
Alex
But when he died, my mom, I was holding him up so that my mom could wash his back. And my Aunt Judy, who lived in another state, was visiting my Uncle Joe, who lived in Vermont, was there. My uncle Wil, who lived in Vermont was there. My mom was there, of course. And then my uncle John, who was in another state called.

00:31:42:02 - 00:32:00:00
Alex
So he was on the phone. So all five of his kids were were there. And then he just breathe like that. He breathed his last breath. I mean, it's almost like he was waiting for all these kids to be there, for him to die right. Because, I mean, it had been months and we we kept sort of saying, you know, you can go now.

00:32:00:00 - 00:32:05:16
Alex
You know, you don't have to hold on for anything. But I think he was holding on for all his kids to be present.

00:32:05:19 - 00:32:40:03
Sasha
I think the thought and I think that's so beautiful and that's why I think ghost stories, I think all of these traditions give us different avenues with which to look into the mysteries of how we're here, where we were before we were born and where we're going after. Do you know I, I think that's quite few. And I feel like I've read somewhere that in Tibetan Buddhism there's a belief that the soul of the dead or the conscious is that the is there 30 days after someone dies, they're still in the house.

00:32:40:06 - 00:33:10:03
Alex
Right? Well, I mean, there's the 49, 49 days between death and birth is what they say, the sort of seven weeks of of the bardo, the sort of that transitional stage between death and birth, where you I mean, it takes several days sometimes to fully die. I mean, it's not like that, right? Like like I was saying, you're all the different consciousnesses of the body have to sort of they leave the extremities, they leave the head, they leave the legs, the feet.

00:33:10:03 - 00:33:49:24
Alex
They flow into the central channel and sort of gather. And then, you know, that's when the heat of the body sort of diminishes. And then and then the consciousness is ejected and then where does it go get it? And so, you know, in addition to power, what the priest will do is, is there's a full 49 day prayer ceremony where you can sort of guide the consciousness on to the next incarnation, because the consciousness is out there looking for a body can't really exist without a body.

00:33:49:24 - 00:34:09:24
Alex
So. And what where is it going to go? And it's going to go determined by the winds of karma. If if your last thought was anger and selfishness and desire, you could you're going to be sort of, you know, it's sort of like, what door are you leaving from? Are you leaving from the flower covered happy door, or are you leaving from the anger resentful, bitter door?

00:34:09:25 - 00:34:27:28
Alex
Because if you leave to the bitter door, you're going to go down this path of selfishness and and you're going to wind up in a hell realm, or you're going to wind up as a as a predator, which is like a hungry ghost, where you just crave, crave, crave all the time and never can be satiated or an animal.

00:34:28:00 - 00:34:52:05
Alex
But if you go down like a happy door where you're thinking good thoughts of other people and you know you're going to sort of activate the karma that you've accumulated through countless lifetimes, which will propel you to a positive rebirth like another human being in a in a good in a good family, you know, where are you have some leisure and you have some, you know, some wealth and you're not suffering disease, war.

00:34:52:05 - 00:35:11:27
Alex
And so so yeah so so and then the things that you see through that period, you know, you're going to see all these demons and you're going to see all these wonderful things and you go towards the wonderful things that you run in fear from the bad things, you know, So, so all of that, that's all documented in the scriptures.

00:35:11:28 - 00:35:28:23
Alex
And so you can read these scriptures to sort of prepare yourself like the idea of being like, okay, I'm dead. All right, so now what do I do? Okay. I remember reading about that, saying, don't go towards that thing. You know, go down this road. You know, it's almost like a it's like a map of of death.

00:35:28:25 - 00:35:32:01
Sasha
And are you referring to the Tibetan Book of the Dead when you're.

00:35:32:01 - 00:35:37:01
Alex
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So it, it describes all of those things.

00:35:37:04 - 00:35:48:07
Sasha
And and is the Tibetan Book of the Dead just one book out of thousands of scriptures that had made its way to the West and became popularized.

00:35:48:09 - 00:36:06:02
Alex
Yeah, yeah. The Tibetan book of it. I mean, it's really like the Tibetan book of the Dead with air quotes around it, right? I mean, it's not like it's not a manual that ever existed. It in the 1920s this guy Evans went Walter Evans went was you know sort of came across these teachings and thought, wow, these are great.

00:36:06:04 - 00:36:26:25
Alex
These are really cool people. They like them. And he asked some Tibetans to help him translate them. But he just took one section out of a vast collection of scriptures that address this issue, you know, because this is this is a big deal you know, what do you do with death is really at the heart of almost you know, it's the heart of every religious tradition, right?

00:36:26:25 - 00:36:53:07
Alex
I mean, dealing with death and the afterlife. So So, yeah, the Tibetan the so-called Tibetan Book of the Dead was just one one bit that he took and and translated and published and gave it the name Tibetan Book of the Dead. I mean, it's not it's just it's the real title is the Bardo to promote the liberation in the transitional state, you know, so how to do it.

00:36:53:08 - 00:37:10:27
Sasha
And in theory, if someone does not become reincarnated as somebody moves through the Bardo and they have the reached, I would say, enlightenment, then do they become a bodhisattva? Do What is their destination if they're not being well.

00:37:11:00 - 00:37:49:29
Alex
If they're enlightened, I mean, if they're a Buddha, then they're gone. They're they're just gone. I mean they, they, they yeah, I mean, that's Nirvana. Nirvana means Nirvana is, is it's the root. Sanskrit is near, which is like neo nihilism, right? It means nothingness. Nirvana means nothingness. It's it's no longer existing, you know. And so the early the early Buddhists were wanted that because the opposite is samsara is endless, cycling through miserable, miserable, you know, awful, exhausting illness, war, you know who wanted it?

00:37:49:29 - 00:38:14:27
Alex
Everybody wanted out of it. So because Nirvana is the absence of suffering, so samsara means suffering. It's it's the cycle of birth and death, which is characterized by suffering. Nirvana has just gone right. And so a Buddha in early Buddhism, a Buddha just is gone, gone never to be seen again. But but then, you know, you start asking questions.

00:38:14:27 - 00:38:39:25
Alex
Well, if the Buddha was here, then the Buddha had to be here before. And then if the Buddha was here before and is now and is permanent, and the Buddha can't go anywhere because the Buddha never really existed, I mean, it gets into like really arcane philosophy of the Buddha is sort of a constant in the universe. The Buddha is enlightenment, the Buddha is awareness.

00:38:39:25 - 00:39:03:10
Alex
The Buddha is, is, is pure wisdom. And that can't go anywhere. So the Buddha, there's sort of like a cosmic Buddha, which is which is constant. And so the Buddha just appears because we want the Buddha to appear. But Buddha was never really here to begin with, right? We just projected the Buddha because we have good karma to do so.

00:39:03:12 - 00:39:30:18
Alex
So did the Buddha leave? No, because the Buddha was never here to begin with. The Buddha was just our projection. So. So then, if that's true, well, there's Buddha is everywhere, you know, because. Because there's consciousness everywhere and there's love everywhere and there's wisdom everywhere. So the Buddha is embodied in everything, including ourselves. If we only knew, you know, I mean, our the nature of our minds is wisdom as well.

00:39:30:18 - 00:39:57:19
Alex
And that's when you do sort of visualization practice to transform your mind. What you're doing is you're activating your sort of innate Buddha, you know, the, the inborn wisdom that pre-dates all the ignorance and all the karma and all the desire and all the hatred that we've, you know, as a, you know, sort of grown on our body is like barnacles on a boat, you know.

00:39:57:19 - 00:40:05:23
Alex
And so we're like if we just sort of purify that, we just let that go, we stop, we stop pretending that that's, that's there, that's real.

00:40:05:25 - 00:40:23:21
Sasha
And, and what what do you make of that of Tibetan demons? Are they projections of human darkness or are they not nefarious energy embodied on its own? Could you talk a little about like black drinking demons? And these are complex.

00:40:23:23 - 00:40:48:00
Alex
Yeah. I mean, those terrifying demons, they're there. There is real. Is the Buddha's real? There is real is you know, it's the bodhisattvas are real. And some of them are bodies. I mean, Bodhisattva is like a stuff as a being who says, no, I'm not going to go into Nirvana because there's too much suffering in the world. I'm going to stay in order to help right there, like the helpers there.

00:40:48:02 - 00:41:11:21
Alex
So they they take rebirth and they they're constant presence. You can pray to them and get stuff. And so some of the bodhisattvas, you know, they're not all lotus holding, you know, rainbow colored. Sometimes they've got fangs and garlands of skulls, you know, the skins of the heretics around their waist, and they're drinking skull cups full of blood.

00:41:11:21 - 00:41:35:06
Alex
And because that's real, right? I mean, that's the world we live in. You know, we're surrounded by love, but we're also surrounded by hate and we're surrounded by violence. And and it's not just, you know, outside there in our minds, you know, in our own heads, we've got all sorts of hate. And so they embody that. And they they you can work with that.

00:41:35:06 - 00:42:01:24
Alex
You can transform that, right? You can. That's energy. That's that's something that's real. And so, you know, you could try to suppress it or try to deny it, but then you're just you're cutting off who you are. You know, you may not want to be a person who hates, but you are a person who hates red. So you have to be a person who hates if you're going to learn how to be a full human being.

00:42:01:24 - 00:42:18:06
Alex
You know, you don't want to act on that hate. You don't want to act on that anger, but you have to acknowledge it. You have to you have to accept it and work with it and see, okay, well, that anger, I'm going to use that anger. I'm going to get really angry about injustice. Right. And I'm going to be really wrathful about injustice.

00:42:18:06 - 00:42:24:12
Alex
And I'm going to use that to fire me, you know, fire fire myself up and do something right.

00:42:24:12 - 00:42:27:15
Sasha
Or energy's energy right then.

00:42:27:18 - 00:42:47:24
Alex
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can use that. And and you can't use it if you're pretending otherwise. You know, I've met so many American Buddhists who pretend never to get angry, you know, because anger is bad, I guess, or, you know, And so they, you know, you ask them, are you angry about this? No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:42:47:28 - 00:43:10:00
Sasha
It's it's such an interesting it's such an interesting conception. And I mean, I find it a lot like the kind of new age, love and light, like the light is good in the dark is bad. As if things were one thing or the it's all energy. In the end. I think the key for so many spiritual practices, it's about the transformation of yeah.

00:43:10:03 - 00:43:16:01
Alex
Back to the right and using it and you can't transform it if you don't use it and you can't, you've got to acknowledge it.

00:43:16:08 - 00:43:50:23
Sasha
But you have to have a willingness to at first just sit with it and be with it, which is like the root, of course, of the shadow work is is being willing to look at and own and examine these heartbreakingly scary, wondrous parts of yourself. Right? It's right. The first app to do you female monks to the nunnery to the nuns do they practice the same about the same approximately the same things as Tibetan monks and different for a female nun.

00:43:50:25 - 00:44:19:26
Alex
Practices are the same, but Tibet is, you know, a patriarchal society. And nuns have only in the last couple of decades, you know, has there been any serious movement or any serious attempt to give nuns the space, you know, to allow nuns the space to do the same thing that men do? I mean, there's always been sort of like great female practitioners who sort of got famous.

00:44:19:28 - 00:44:38:02
Alex
But in terms of communities of women, there really there's a there's a proverb in Tibet that if you want a master, make your son a monk. If you want a servant make your daughter a nun, you know. So it's very, very they've got a long way to go. I mean, we all have a long way to go, right?

00:44:38:03 - 00:45:15:00
Alex
I mean, but there there are some amazing, amazing female communities. In fact, one of the largest religious community the world is a is a it's a community of women in Sichuan Province, a Tibetan area called Quorum Gar. There's sometimes the Chinese government is constantly trying to shut it down or shrink it, but there are often tens of thousands of women living in little huts together, practicing together, teaching each other, writing and reading and doing amazing things.

00:45:15:00 - 00:45:50:02
Alex
So like and, you know, women have, you know, it. Yeah, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of great efforts both from inside Tibet and then the exile community and then also among female Western women teachers who are ordained nuns, who are really sort of working together to try to to sort of, you know, remind the world that women it's not it's not that women can do the things that men do, but people can do these things both men and women can do these things.

00:45:50:02 - 00:45:51:13
Alex
Right.

00:45:51:16 - 00:46:12:03
Sasha
It's one of the it's one of the interesting complexities and and something I was surprised to learn about because Buddhism just for the layperson who hears about it, you know, it does seem so soft and gentle. Yeah. So looking then you closer and you realize, it's quite, quite patriarchal moment. The last time you were in Tibet.

00:46:12:05 - 00:46:30:04
Alex
Gosh, I haven't been for a long time since we're probably going almost 20 years, probably haven't been. It was, you know, in the nineties, in the in the arts, it was much easier to travel in Tibet. It's different now. It's very, very controlled. Yeah. So.

00:46:30:07 - 00:46:43:05
Sasha
So I have to ask you, with all of this talk about the Bardo and different death rates, first of all, have you decided how how you want to be buried?

00:46:43:07 - 00:47:08:08
Alex
I know where I want to be. I mean, we have a family plot in Shrewsbury, Vermont. You know, my dad is there, my grandparents are there. I'd like to be there. But then when I think about it, it's like, I don't what do I care where I am? It's, you know, where my kids want me to be, You know, I want to be I want to be where they, you know, So maybe my backyard, you know, I want to I want to make it so that they can visit when they need to, you know?

00:47:08:10 - 00:47:09:01
Alex
Yeah.

00:47:09:03 - 00:47:16:00
Sasha
And if you could come back and haunt someone, would you, your kids or your friends, would you enjoy doing that?

00:47:16:02 - 00:47:41:25
Alex
Wouldn't you? I mean, not to hide, but I mean, it's hard to separate, you know, I don't want to like the idea if, like, somebody would give me the option of of just, you know, floating around, you know, my children's lives and just watching them, it would be hard to say no. I mean, how can I, you know, like the thought of the thought of not being available to them makes me sad.

00:47:41:28 - 00:48:00:05
Alex
Right. And then the thought of being able to watch what happens to them, even if I can't be involved, even I can't like, impact them or influence them or anything. But that sounds joyful. I'd love to see it. Yeah. So. So yeah, I guess I probably would come back as a as a ghost if I could.

00:48:00:08 - 00:48:27:18
Sasha
One last question, Alex. And of course, there's no right or wrong because we're talking about right. We're just talking about our ideas are, inclinations, about mystery, about the supernatural. But where'd you think you were before you were born? And where do you. Where do you if you had to put money on it, what do you think will happen when you depart this life?

00:48:27:20 - 00:48:58:01
Alex
My mom once was. Was that when I was a kid, she. She got hypnotized and she was told that she was an Indian chief. And I just thought like, yeah, they pretty probably tells that to everybody. He's probably got like five things he does, right. But I don't know, I'm always sort of every time something resonates with me like an A really like, wow, I like read it like in a historical event and it feels like I have emotional response to something I sort of feel like I must have.

00:48:58:04 - 00:49:20:24
Alex
I'm not me, but I feel like, maybe I was there. Maybe I was somehow connected, you know, like I don't know much about it, but I felt like, I mean, yeah. So there are a couple of times that has happened when I so, so I just sort of feel like maybe I have been around, you know, and where I'd like to go next.

00:49:20:24 - 00:49:39:12
Alex
I don't know. Like my son and I, we about, you know, do you want to be a snake? Do you want to be a bird? Do you want to be you know what would be a fun you know, and and there's all sorts of but it seems like would be lovely to be a bird, you know, until a hawk comes down and eat you or you.

00:49:39:14 - 00:49:45:07
Sasha
Are is cruel. I think we could be. It's tougher than being a human, I think, right?

00:49:45:09 - 00:50:05:01
Alex
Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, I just, I guess I would hope that I'm in a I mean, a human where and, and and doing something good. You know, where I have a life of value and meaning that, you know, benefits people.

00:50:05:03 - 00:50:39:11
Sasha
Thank you so much for being part of ghost stories by the fire. Do you have a spooky story near-death experience or supernatural happening You'd like to share? I'd love to hear it. Submit your story to Sasha Grammy.com with ghost stories by the fire in the subject line. You might just wind up on this podcast, and if you want to support it and keep the ghost stories coming, head on over to Sasha Grammy.com to check out my books and decks which are available for purchase at your favorite bookseller.

00:50:39:13 - 00:51:02:11
Sasha
The Ghost stories by the Fire theme song is titled Lovely from the original motion picture score of The Deeper You Dig a film about the lengths a mother will go to to find her daughter's killer, even if that means accepting a curse from Beyond the Grave. Lead vocals by Zelda Adams Stream The Deeper You Dig On Amazon Prime or Tubi.

00:51:02:13 - 00:51:07:26
Sasha
Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I'm saving you a seat at the fire.