Episode #3: "Lola of the Lake" with Actor and Author Susan Wands

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Lovely
You come to me when I'm lonely. I take your hand and we go home. You cover me with your face. You with my.

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Sasha
Dive deep into the heart of any ghost story. And it's subtext reveals the same truth. Life after death exists. And there is an enduring love connection to those who knew and know us. But that doesn't make hauntings any more comfortable or fun. Susan Wands is a writer, terror reader and actress. For 30 years, she's worked on Broadway in films and regional theater.

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Sasha
She's the co-chair of the New York City chapter of the historical Novel Society, and her third book in her series about Pamela Coleman Smith titled Emperor and Higher Offend, will be published in 2025. She is also one of my dearest friends in this expansive episode, we talk about the psychic link and unique childhood language between Susan and her identical twin sister, Cynthia.

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Sasha
Her witchy board playing grandmother and a dead relative known as Lola of the Lake. Susan chats about the ghost of the Belasco Theater. Why King James of England began burning witches and how Susan herself had a near-death experience in which her father brought.

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Sasha
Her back.

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Sasha
Using a pack of cherry lifesavers. Pour yourself a cup of tea or something stronger and get ready for a wonderful conversation about the unknown. Because I'm your host, Sasha Graham, and this is Ghost Stories.

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Lovely
By my name. Lovely Shirley.

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Sasha
Hello. Thank you so much for joining us at Ghost Stories by the Fire.

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Susan
Thank you. My pleasure to be here.

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Sasha
So I'd love to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, did you grow up in a house that.

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Susan
Told.

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Sasha
Ghost stories or believed in ghosts and the afterlife?

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Susan
Well, we did spend a lot of time at my grandparents farm in upstate New York called Bonnie Brae, and my grandmother loved to use the Ouija board because there were lots of things that she wanted answers to. One of them was the disappearance of one of our relatives called Lola. And there was lots of speculation about what happened to her and where was this and where was that?

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Susan
And I'll never forget the night that the Ouija board spelled out Lola in the lake. And so that sort of set our family at least somewhat at peace, that Lola was in the lake. A farmhouse itself was very spooky. It was supposedly an underground railroad station at one time. But downstairs in the cellar, you had a dirt floor.

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Susan
It had a furnace that had been put in, I think, right after World War Two. But it was always freezing, freezing cold. And we could hear things. We could I mean, the kids all slept in one room and we all heard things in different parts of the house. So Nan, being very Scottish and very pragmatic, was just, you know, does it just the voices ignore them.

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Sasha
So so she was pragmatic in the fact that that not only were there voices and ghosts, but but you could communicate with them just like you would a regular person. Only she used a Ouija board. She used a.

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Susan
Ouija board, and it was more like a thrilling piece of entertainment. But she was also very Scottish in her pragmatism. It's not like you don't get over emotional about it, you don't talk about it. Subject is closed. And so once it was mentioned, it was sort of it was never mentioned again.

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Sasha
And did you know which lake Lola of the lake was in? You know, I.

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Susan
Wish we had asked more questions as kids. It was just one of those things where we heard that and it was just hush hush. You know, there was a lot of nervous energy around it. And Nan was convinced that was the answer. When Lola was.

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Sasha
That's. Well, that's that's wonderful that you that your family got a bit of closure around that. So I would imagine that late into the night, you, with all of your brothers and sisters, sleeping in one room in a haunted lake. It sounds like this place was centuries over 100 years old.

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Sasha
Yes. Yes. Would you?

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Susan
I have an identical twin sisters. Of course. We were high jinks geared up to believe every peep, every sound as being something from the other side. So there was a lot of nervous energy about all that.

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Sasha
Now, you and your twin sister, now she's an identical twin. Is that.

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Susan
Yes, she's identical twin. We're very close. She lives in California. I live in New York. And we talk every day.

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Sasha
And you talk every day on the phone via text. Or do you speak in that invisible way that twins are known to communicate?

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Susan
Well, supposedly we did. Cynthia and I did have twin speak and that we did not talk to our parents. And I remember my mother saying it was like raising Martians because they would come into the bedroom where we were in the crib and we'd be chattering away at each other. And then my mother would come in and we'd both come,

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Susan
And I talk to her. And in the baby book, Cynthia's first words, I believe she must have been maybe. she must have been over two. We were in Florida living at the time, and my dad stopped very quickly at an intersection, and her first words were not Mama Dada, but they were like, Shit, you jerk! Because we had been so used to talking amongst ourselves that we'd just picked up language, but we never interacted with other adults.

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Sasha
That's interesting. So that's. So you were actually practicing conversation with your twin in a way that probably put you ahead cognitively in terms of being able to communicate than other two year olds.

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Susan
Yes. And I'm not sure what language we were speaking. I mean, if you were to ask us today, neither one of us would know what it is. But I do know that we have an unspoken bio rhythm. I have migraines. Sometimes when she has migraines, I can sense when she's upset. She can sense when I'm upset. We have premonitions together, so we're definitely clued in to some sort of energy lay line.

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Sasha
Right? Right. That links the two of you together, which is it's so beautiful. It seems like the ultimate intimacy to to have. So you say the two of you have premonitions together as in future cognition of things that will be occurring in the future or something else.

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Sasha
Well, sometimes.

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Susan
We both have feelings of unease where we reach out to each other and say, I feel like something's happening. Me too. I don't know what it is. And then later on, we find out what it is.

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Sasha
That's so interesting. Now I know that you are also a large part of your life is in the tarot world and in tarot and in just tarot practice as a general sense, there's a lot of emphasis on psychic and intuitive development. So I'm curious, does the the connection and the intuition shared by you and your sister, does it have the same timber as, say, an intuition or a psychic pop that you get separately from your sister?

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Sasha
In other words, when it happens between the two of you, does it feel different then than if something was going to intuitively pop into your head just in your own life with nothing to do with your sister?

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Sasha
Well, I.

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Susan
Do say that there are times and I don't know if this happens to you, Sasha, when you're doing a tarot reading, sometimes a card reading will just spread out in the meaning of what the archetypes are saying. Just happens. Just just as clear as when. Cynthia I feel Cynthia is trying to reach out to me. You know, there's been a couple of times when I've done readings where I see things like someone's in a car accident without a seatbelt or and I said that in a reading and asked a friend to please be careful.

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Susan
And she mentioned years later that she always buckled up because of that reading. And they were in a terrible car accident. That would have been disastrous if she hadn't on her seatbelt. So I feel that there are times in my tarot readings where whatever that where a bubble of time is, where an event is floating free form. I can't explain it, but somehow I'm able to access.

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Sasha
That.

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Susan
And and other energies.

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Sasha
It's so interesting. Does your sister practice tarot as well?

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Susan
She likes the cards. She doesn't really use it as an act of practice like I do, and I have to be very judicious when I use my tarot readings for her because, you know, she can take them very, very much to heart. And because she's gone through the recent loss of her husband of 40 years, I have to be very careful about what energies I draw up that aren't obvious and and distressing.

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Sasha
Yes. Yes. Okay. So that actually leads me to the next question that I'd love to to ask you about. Communication with people who have passed over on the other side. Is that is that something you've ever experienced?

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Susan
Yes, actually. And I don't talk about this very much, but I was married before and my first husband died of a brain cancer. And the night after he died, I had a waking dream where he was where we used to live in Seattle. And he was wearing one of the shirts that I bought him. And I sat up in bed and he was there and he told me that he was going to be all right.

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Susan
And then he was gone. And I kept saying it was just a dream. It was just a dream. But I was sitting up looking at the end of my bed where he was. So the dream actually, if I was that asleep, it actually manifested to what I felt like was a presence. So that was one of the strongest feelings of somebody being there.

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Susan
But my sister, my twin sister and I have been going through quite a bit lately with the passing of her husband coming to visit us both. And it's been both wonderful and very unnerving at the same time.

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Sasha
Can you tell us more about it?

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Susan
Sure. I have to say, I did ask Cynthia for permission to tell this story because it's very intimate and very weird and it's sort of disclosing family secrets.

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Sasha
So it's a safe a safe space.

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Susan
Right. This past year, my current husband, my wonderful husband, Robert, and I were in Italy and we had gone knowing that Cynthia's husband, Eric, might be in final days. And when we had left to go, I was very torn. I was in Los Angeles saying goodbye to him, and I said, I can't wait to come back and tell you all about it.

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Susan
I can't wait to tell you about Italy. And he said, Go, go, have a wonderful time. And I knew that was going to be the last time I saw him. So we were in our hotel room and Cynthia called and said because of the events of the day, she had had some lovely women come over and they were like, that's docents who had done some energy work with him.

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Susan
And they advised Cynthia that they thought that Eric was going to pass that night. So Cynthia called us. I think it was around 11:00 in the morning, Milan time, and she had just called a friend. Please come over. It was like 2:00 in the morning in Los Angeles, and we went on face time. So we were having like this online situation where Eric was breathing very heavily, sort of in his death rattle.

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Susan
Cynthia's friend came over and we just kept trying to coach Eric through the end, trying to reassure him that everything was going to be okay. He'd been sick with multiple myeloma for about six years, 14 years, and he was suffering terribly at the end. But he did not want to leave. He did not want to leave my sister.

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Susan
So during this process, which lasted about 45 minutes, he started to go. Now his eyes are closed. And then towards the end of this, he opened his eyes and pointed to the other side of the room and said, I need to get to there. And Robert said, Don't worry, Eric, we're going to take care of Cynthia. And then he had a big death rattle and the lights in the bedroom turned off and our face time connection went to black with a very, very bright, vivid pattern of color.

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Susan
We had never seen anything like it before. It was unbelievable. And Eric was a phenomenal artist. He was a starting class artist, photographer, a food photographer, a ballet dancer. I mean, he was art itself. So he left this planet turning off the light and sending us this image. So we got right back online saying, is he okay? And she said, No, he's passed.

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Susan
So then we process the rest of Eric's passing. We she arranged for him to be taken care of. We had a beautiful ceremony for him later on. And so he and I were FaceTiming are zooming on of these Afros and in the middle of our talk. That exact same image appeared to both of us. This was a very intense pattern of colors, and this pattern of colors began to shift and morph like he was speaking to us.

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Susan
It started off with a very gray violet white combination, and then it changed to a fuchsia pink rose. And then it would go back and forth with a black line. Every once in a while, and within all these striations, it was moving. And Cynthia was very upset when she first saw it. And she said, Eric, is that you?

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Susan
And the colors got a little more intense, and they started moving a little more vividly. So she did it for a little while, and then she got overwhelmed and said, I'm sorry, I just can't do this. So she had to hang up and then I had to think to myself, Now how can I help her through this? Because this is totally weird.

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Susan
Everybody we've talked to in tech says it's not possible for two people to have both of their screens taken over with some sort of pattern that just doesn't happen. So I had to think if this happens again, how can I help Cynthia see this? So sure enough, it happened again. And during that time, because I was on my iPhone, I just kept taking snapshots of it, screenshots of it, and so that she could see what it was.

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Susan
The next time that it happened, I was walking down the bed, Bath and beyond talking to my sister on the phone. And in the middle of our conversation, Eric's colors show up and we go crazy. They're like zipping across a stream, like dancing and all this other stuff. And I'm on the busy New York City street. I'm going,

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Sasha
Hi, Eric. I'm running an errand. Nope, you know what's happening?

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Susan
And so that lasted for quite a while. And I took some screenshots of that. And then Cynthia said, I just don't know what to think about this. I don't know what he's saying. I don't know what he wants from me. And I said, I think because he was such an artist, he's trying to come through the only way that he can through the vibration of color, are literally vibrating.

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Susan
Now, there were a couple last incidences where we were having conversations in our house and he showed up again. This time he showed up on the computer instead of just two phones. So I was able to take my iPhone and record it as a movie of how these bars are moving.

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Sasha
So wait, so you were when when he when the colors appeared on the computer, you were actually in the room with your sister, Cynthia. So then rather than being on the iPhone, it was on the computer.

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Susan
I was on my computer in New York. She was on her computer in Los.

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Sasha
Angeles.

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Susan
Because I was on my computer. I picked up my iPhone and I started recording it like a movie. And so I could show her what it look like. Do you want me to show it to you?

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Sasha
Yes, please.

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Susan
Okay. Okay. So this is the latest one.

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Sasha
my. That is beautiful.

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Susan
Now, it went on and on, and you can sort of see some of it because of the click there. That's how you can see it.

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Sasha
Susan, I have never, ever seen anything like that, that that.

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Susan
Is just so weird. It's like all these long bars and lines of interactive my mitochondria moving in fuchsia and white and gold and purple. And when we would talk, it would go faster and slower depending on what we were talking about. Your job.

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Sasha
It's so beautiful. It really does look like art. It is the most extraordinary tones of pink and fuchsia and.

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Susan
Yes, and here we have I'm going to just do a quick screenshot for you to see. This is the very first time it showed when I was walking down the street. I was just taking snapshots so you can see that it started with fuchsia and then it turned to a white and a rose. And then there was always this sort of like dark band in there too.

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Susan
So until I figured out how to film it, instead of just take snapshots, I sent it to Cynthia and, you know, this visitation. And we're both pretty convinced that this visitation from Eric has a strata of feelings with it. For Cynthia, who's still really mourning the loss of Eric sometimes she's very vulnerable and tender and it's like, Hi, honey, how are you?

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Susan
I wish I could understand what you're saying. And then other times it's so overwhelming she has to hang up, you know, or process it anymore. But I think having the images helps her, helps her feel like it's real because you feel crazy. I think this is what happens sometimes when we see these things. We dismiss that thing at the top of the stairs.

00:19:02:28 - 00:19:20:25
Susan
We dismiss that shadow over there, is it Our brains can't take it in. And so this at least has been helpful for her to feel like Eric is probably passing still, but he's sending her his love in the way that he can best express it.

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Sasha
And the fact that it's repetitive, the fact that it's not just a one time off is that just seems like a like such a gift.

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Susan
And that it's the same sort of image that he sent when he passed. You know, it's coming back. It's like his signature.

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Sasha
Energy.

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Susan
And it's coming back and and reinventing itself and saying, I'm alive in this way. I think Cynthia talked about this. It's crazy. She's talked about this to her therapist, to her friends, to other people. And all they can say is, I don't know what that is.

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Sasha
Yeah, I, I, I think it's the most comforting thing I've ever heard.

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Susan
Well, yeah. I mean, even Robert, who's somewhat agnostic, said this has really changed his mind about what's on the other side.

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Sasha
I think that I think that therein lay the heart and soul of a ghost story. Do you know, I think that this this is why I mean, we all gather around and want to get spooked and listen to spooky stories because it's fun and it gets our blood racing and we kind of sit on the edge of our seats.

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Sasha
But behind all of that visceral feeling, really is often life affirming stories of enduring love, right? Of of something before and something after this experience on Earth. And I think that that's a beautiful thing.

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Susan
I mean, we want reassurance. I think most of us do that there is continuation after we pass. But what is it? Where is it is you you hear stories of even the ghost of Secretariat, the great horse still pounding. You know, where she trained to run so fast and so that she is still there at Stonehenge. They say you can still hear the battles of King Arthur's, you know, places in Cornwall.

00:21:23:06 - 00:21:33:29
Susan
And so maybe there is it our imagination that's picking up frequencies or are those frequencies there for the right tuning fork to pick up? It's it's a quandary.

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Sasha
It's a quandary. It's a mystery. And I think it's one worth exploring because it whether or not in this lifetime will ever get a solid answer is almost, I think, beside the point. I always say like mysteries are meant to be explored. They're not meant to be explained. And I'll share that. A few weeks after my own father had passed, I was in my apartment.

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Sasha
Something very exciting had just happened. I had just gotten this really wonderful message that I was thrilled about. I looked down into my computer and an email pops through. I got a new subscriber to my website with the name of Michael Sullivan, which was my father's name Watch. And I thought, he's sharing this moment with me. I mean, yeah, for sure.

00:22:24:05 - 00:22:40:04
Sasha
Michael Sullivan is a fairly Michael and Sullivan are common names, but the timing, my emotional tenor, when it came through, I literally like dropped my laptop and was like, my God,

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Susan
Thanks.

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Sasha
Dad.

00:22:42:17 - 00:23:01:14
Sasha
It's so it's so wild and it's and it's so wonderful. Do you because, Eric, you're your brother in law because he was an artist. Do you think that you or Cynthia might ever do something with that artwork, even if it was just only for yourselves, printed up or. I don't know.

00:23:01:16 - 00:23:16:25
Susan
I wanted to meet her, but she's not ready if that is to happen. So I'll wait for her if she ever wants me. Several people have offered to turn it into fabric or, you know, art wall Art. But it seems like such a weird.

00:23:16:27 - 00:23:17:27
Sasha
Yeah.

00:23:18:00 - 00:23:23:26
Susan
It's a tribute, but a diminué Shaun of Hands. So she needs to feel like it's right.

00:23:23:29 - 00:23:50:08
Sasha
Yeah. And then and, and at that point, then it becomes something else, right? It's not necessarily the communicate. Thank you. And thank you to Cynthia for allowing us to to talk about this because it's a tender, a tender space. But I'm super curious. You have been an actress in the theater, on stage, on Broadway, on film and television for over 30 years.

00:23:50:11 - 00:24:08:00
Sasha
And certainly I know a lot of artists and actors talk about when they're doing work, that they're actually channeling energies. And I'm so curious, Do you ever feel like in your professional life that you're channeling the energy of a character that you've played?

00:24:08:03 - 00:24:38:01
Susan
I can say that there are times when you're playing somebody who's really out there. You have to really be careful. I think there's a saying or there's not understanding that when you do magic, you have to protect yourself and before and after. And it's the same way with doing a role. When I was doing Blanche to why it was a really tough excursion into a mindset that the mind breaks.

00:24:38:03 - 00:25:00:28
Susan
And I realized towards the end of the role through the run of that, I'm not going to last much longer doing this. This is tough. I mean, yes, you're acting from acting, but you're playing a person who is raped by her brother in law, who is desperate, who has no choices left, and everything that she held dear about how she saw herself has been destroyed.

00:25:01:00 - 00:25:27:03
Susan
And so I really was looking forward to the end of that run because that the dangerous energies of her frailty began to inhabit me. And I was very glad to see that role. And I can say I know that when Vivien Leigh also did the role, many people felt the beginning of her mental problems started playing that role.

00:25:27:06 - 00:25:53:29
Sasha
wow. And so would you attribute that to the energy of Blanche Dubois as a character, or would you say that it probably happens more just from being in that headspace of, you know, 8 to 10 times a week going through a mental breakdown and that perhaps the body and the mind can't separate necessarily play acting from it's actual happening.

00:25:54:01 - 00:26:13:25
Susan
You know, and I know there's lots of amazing actors who can do things like King Lear and Lady Macbeth, and they don't have to kill or go crazy and they can withstand that. But for some reason, that particular mindset, I was not I was not channeling the energies right. I know some people do it brilliantly and hats off to them.

00:26:13:27 - 00:26:37:03
Susan
But there are lots of instances of actors who would like. I think Daniel Day-Lewis is a good example. He's all in you know, he's in character on set. He's a little, you know, over invested. And you have to see he was also the one who had a nervous breakdown when he was doing Hamlet and walked off stage and see where sometimes you can just be taking all sorts of wrong turns inside your head with those energies.

00:26:37:03 - 00:26:46:14
Susan
And not Blanche Dubois itself, but the pathways just like reaching a very scary energy during a tarot reading. And you're going, okay, we're going to.

00:26:46:16 - 00:27:03:05
Sasha
Not I don't want to yeah, I'm not going to step into that particular shadow and share space with exactly with that thing. Did you have rituals that you would do? Did you have any sort of or do you have any sort of protective rituals that you do when you're either writing or playing a role?

00:27:03:08 - 00:27:20:06
Susan
Well, I think that the wonderful thing about acting is that you come back and as you take everything off, you know, wigs, makeup, costumes, there's a sort of sanctity about, you know, understanding this is gone, this is leaving. Talk like yourself.

00:27:20:09 - 00:27:20:26
Sasha
Yeah.

00:27:20:29 - 00:27:35:15
Susan
Using the accent. So I think that that's all symbolized ritual in a way. Yeah, But I think sometimes you can ask for protection as you're getting ready to do these things with yourself. I think that's.

00:27:35:16 - 00:27:58:11
Sasha
I think that's fascinating because certainly in all the world's religions, you know, in ritual, there's such a theatricality, For example, in the Catholic religion, which you've got music and art and architecture and these incredible costumes and, you know, jewels. If you happen to be in a cathedral and golden chalices. And it is, it is the it is such theatricality.

00:27:58:11 - 00:28:36:02
Sasha
But, but the it's useful, right? Because it brings it brings the practitioners into a sacred space, just like in a theater when when the audience goes in sort of ready to receive something, a lesson or some entertainment. Yeah, it's it's quite, quite similar. I'm curious, Susan theaters I've had occasion to be an empty theaters and it's a funny thing to walk into an empty theater because they're actually quite full within the silence of an empty theater.

00:28:36:04 - 00:28:56:26
Sasha
There's almost like it's a quite thunderous silence. They tend to be very spooky places. You are, in fact, often raising the dead, speaking in the word of dead poets and playwrights and famous characters and iconic characters. So have you ever had any interesting, spooky experiences in the theater?

00:28:56:29 - 00:29:22:21
Susan
Well, there was a very old theater in Pittsburgh. We were doing a play called Dancing Atlantis by Brian Friel, and it was a lovely cast of wonderful actresses. I had the time of my life doing it, but it was said that the person who started the theater passed and still walked around there. Now I was playing Rose, who was the somewhat dimwitted sister, and there was one matinee.

00:29:22:21 - 00:29:38:25
Susan
I think what we had was seeing eye dogs were being trained to come and sit in on theaters and during the part where we're dancing around, I'm on the floor and one of the puppies I remembered it was like a red golden retriever came running up on the stage with me and said, I want to play too. I want to dance.

00:29:38:25 - 00:30:06:11
Susan
Elena said to me. It took a while to get the dog, put him back in the seat. The audience just went crazy and loved it. And this is kind of we've sort of broken the fourth wall here. So I went backstage and I was getting ready. I think it was getting close to the curtain call and there was a man in like it almost look like a priest garb, a black frock coat, clothes and a hat.

00:30:06:13 - 00:30:30:21
Susan
And there was a stair that went up to a wall, you know, like they had done remodeling and they just cut off where the staircase was. And I went back there and I went crazy, And he disappeared. So I went, okay, I'm I'm just really jazzed up from this crazy performance of dancing. It was fun. I'm seeing things, but that was totally weird.

00:30:30:24 - 00:30:42:29
Susan
And then I now, should I tell anybody or am I going to be one of those high strung actresses that are seeing things? And then I thought, No, I'll mention it to Martha, you know, and see what she says. And she said, no, he's here all the time.

00:30:43:01 - 00:30:45:08
Sasha
He's here. I went.

00:30:45:10 - 00:30:49:01
Susan
I don't know if you like the matinee shenanigans with the dog or not. And she went in.

00:30:49:01 - 00:30:55:22
Sasha
Probably not. my gosh. That's amazing.

00:30:55:24 - 00:30:57:29
Sasha
That is amazing.

00:30:58:02 - 00:31:16:05
Susan
Even now at the Belasco Theater on Broadway, they're putting a show in there now. And there's a wonderful actor named Caesar who was in Come From Away. He just posted on his Instagram that he spotted Belasco in the last row and he's black, as infamous for being sighted during rehearsals. And it's.

00:31:16:07 - 00:31:16:29
Sasha
So good, I.

00:31:16:29 - 00:31:34:12
Sasha
Ask you, because I do I know you do have extensive an extensive Shakespearean background. Could you explain to people who are listening, who might not quite understand why Shakespeare has a play that should not be named?

00:31:34:15 - 00:31:56:15
Susan
Yes, there's several theories on this. The Scottish play at one time was so popular that if you were on the road and they took down all the programing about what you were doing and put up a Scottish play, it meant the play was in trouble and that they needed revenue. And only by doing that play could you continue.

00:31:56:18 - 00:32:01:15
Sasha
Wait, can I say the name of the play can't be saved. So we're talking about Macbeth?

00:32:01:19 - 00:32:31:05
Susan
Yes. So that's the commercial aspect of it. The other aspect of it is that there are actually witches spells by the three, which is in Macbeth, and that the actors who play the witches by and large, have traditional, you know, safe things that they do before they do the incantation before him. And it's said that if you don't do these regardless if the show is doing well or not, then catastrophes happen on stage.

00:32:31:05 - 00:32:55:07
Susan
You know, people get hurt during a sword fight. Eubank was head that's supposed to float around a float, whatever it is. So the three witches are usually really tight together in terms of making sure that I mean, during Alan Terry's time at the Lyceum Theater in the 1880s, there was a boycott because some Christians believed that they had come to see a black mass on stage.

00:32:55:09 - 00:33:10:24
Susan
So and of course, this is some conjecture because King James, of course, was convinced that there were witches and that he wanted Shakespeare's idea of witches to show that they were just evil, repugnant people who brought, you know, catastrophe.

00:33:10:29 - 00:33:25:05
Sasha
So is it King James? King James of England wasn't he was singlehandedly responsible for the beginning of the witch hunts that would go on to kind of ravage the globe and kill thousands and thousands of men, women and children?

00:33:25:06 - 00:33:42:05
Susan
That's right. And I believe that the story goes is he came to that conclusion because when he was trying to come back to claim his throne, his boat kept getting pushed out to sea by the wind. And people told him that the witches were on the shore blowing him away. So he vowed to wreak.

00:33:42:05 - 00:33:43:28
Sasha
Havoc.

00:33:44:01 - 00:33:45:09
Sasha
And thus he did.

00:33:45:10 - 00:33:47:18
Susan
Unfortunately, yes.

00:33:47:21 - 00:34:17:12
Sasha
I wonder, is I wonder if the burning of witches, the burning of women, the ostracism, the all of the theft and the ostrich. Ostrich, I can't say it. Ostracizing women who weren't playing by the rules or who had things that maybe their neighbors wanted. A Do you think that that was inevitable or do you think that we could really point to figure, like King James in history and with a history of had a much different course?

00:34:17:12 - 00:34:21:11
Sasha
What had the wind not been blowing his ship off?

00:34:21:13 - 00:34:47:20
Susan
Well, I think there's a lot of things that men don't understand. And the fact that there might have been women who had property and were independent was terribly threatening to them. And so it was much easier to say they slept with the devil. And then and now we get to kill them and take all their property. But also there was this idea of, well, if you didn't go to one of our elite schools and you can't read and write, how the heck do you know how to cure anything?

00:34:47:22 - 00:35:08:29
Susan
How do you know botanicals? How can you read minds? How can you talk to animals? You're just a beast, basically. And so the fact that women had been kept from learning, you know, conventionally how to read and write and how to be in charge, the fact that there were still very powerful US women who knew how to do a lot of these things was very threatening to men.

00:35:08:29 - 00:35:20:25
Susan
And the fact that some of them died and had property that was like the number one thing. But there's a whole psyche part of it too, that's threatening to them that they don't understand how you know anything, if they kept you from everything.

00:35:21:01 - 00:35:33:15
Sasha
Right, Right. If everything is theirs, how how would you know? How would you have your own autonomous power outside of us? What is the what's that spookiest thing that's ever happened to you? Can I ask you? That's.

00:35:33:18 - 00:35:40:11
Susan
gosh, I wrote it down. Okay, so when I was.

00:35:40:14 - 00:35:41:06
Sasha
A senior.

00:35:41:06 - 00:36:05:01
Susan
In high school in Spokane, Washington, I mean, you can tell we moved all around. We lived in a lot of spooky houses because we were in the Air Force. They were usually old houses that my parents were docents for. We lived in a scary one in Kittery Point, Maine, and Portsmouth and Fremont, Nebraska. I mean, there were all these appointed Victorian homes, and my mother would usually be the one in charge of showing it around.

00:36:05:03 - 00:36:34:09
Susan
So when we lived in Fremont, once again there was a stairwell that was freezing cold. You know, it could be in Nebraska, it could be the middle of summer. And that stair going upstairs would be so cold and my dad at one point said, you have to be careful going up the stairs after 9:00. And we just thought he was trying to get us to go to bed early, you know, because it was like his past our bedtime.

00:36:34:12 - 00:36:56:20
Susan
And he there was I remember it's I can just see it. So visually, there were these glass French doors that open from the hallway into the vestibule. And then you go up the stairs. And we were standing I was dad was like nagging us to go up there and these two or were there three little old ladies appeared like ghostly flower etchings or sandpaper or something.

00:36:56:20 - 00:37:13:25
Susan
And they went up the stairs and then they turned back and looked at us. And then as they disappeared into the wall, it was sort of like very ominous, like God, unfortunately disappeared, was just on the other side of my bedroom.

00:37:13:27 - 00:37:15:18
Sasha
That had you see.

00:37:15:18 - 00:37:18:08
Sasha
This alone or did you see this with your siblings?

00:37:18:11 - 00:37:34:16
Susan
Dad was standing on the other side of the French doors and he was saying, get up there and go to bed. I think Cynthia and Kurt were already up there. I was downstairs, but I saw that and I was just like terrified from that hallway from then on. And Kurt actually heard a lot of things in that house, too, that scared him.

00:37:34:16 - 00:37:55:21
Susan
There was screaming and yelling in the basement, always basements. But that was the most scared I've ever been because they I don't know if they were trying to help dad out with childcare or if they really hated having kids in the house. But it was definitely an energy. And and the fact that my father said later on that he had seen them on occasion really set it home.

00:37:55:24 - 00:38:01:09
Sasha
Because I would imagine that your father was not prone to seeing ghosts on the regular.

00:38:01:12 - 00:38:28:18
Susan
No, but I did have a out of body experience with my dad. I was in high school, I had pneumonia. I was in the hospital. I wasn't expected to make it, actually. And I was sort of in a coma. And dad showed up in his uniform and he sat next to the bed and he took out a roll of cherry lifesavers and he unrolled it and then put like three of them on the nightstand where my body was.

00:38:28:21 - 00:38:53:15
Susan
And I remember I was floating on the ceiling looking down and thinking, look, Dad's brought me lifesavers. I guess he's trying to save my life. I guess I should go back down. Okay, I'll go back down. So then I remember being there and waking up and he said, Hello, Susie.

00:38:53:18 - 00:39:06:03
Sasha
That's an extraordinary story. Wow. So you were completely free floating from your body on your way, presumably. Yeah, Through the other side. I wasn't and.

00:39:06:03 - 00:39:16:03
Susan
I wasn't afraid. I just remember looking down, going, he cares. And there's life savers. They're red like blood. I should probably go back.

00:39:16:06 - 00:39:16:27
Sasha
I, I.

00:39:16:27 - 00:39:43:10
Sasha
Think it's so, it's so interesting because time and time again you hear and you see or maybe you had the experience to be with someone when they're cycling through death. That there is that the material things in the world that kind of bring bring a spirit back, bring a soul back. And it's a funny thing because you see cherry lifesavers immediately I see the color red.

00:39:43:10 - 00:39:49:12
Sasha
I can see the shiny silver wrapping that's underneath and I can taste it. You know, you couldn't he.

00:39:49:12 - 00:39:50:14
Susan
Couldn't have picked a.

00:39:50:14 - 00:39:57:11
Sasha
More kind of sweet, intense treat to bring you back with.

00:39:57:13 - 00:40:13:03
Susan
And he's not he wasn't an especially affectionate man. The fact that he knew that I liked cherry lifesavers and I'm not sure if psychology claimed he understood. He was literally throwing me a lifesaver. But it was really, really very dear.

00:40:13:06 - 00:40:27:05
Sasha
That's amazing. So does an experience like that, does that give you peace when you think about either where you were before you were born or where you'll go after? Does it does it does it give you comfort?

00:40:27:08 - 00:40:46:13
Susan
It does give me comfort. I mean, I try not to panic that we only have so much time on this mortal coil and I have so much more I want to do, but I am at peace with as long as I can take every day and live it as fully as I can. The good, the bad, the anxious, you know, all of it.

00:40:46:13 - 00:41:06:00
Susan
Just be alive and admit that not every day's going to be fabulous, but it is going to be a life. Then I. Then I have What is it when you're really jealous, wish for something for somebody else is turning that energy inside out. When I panic about not being here for the next 30 years.

00:41:06:00 - 00:41:07:04
Sasha
Which I hope.

00:41:07:05 - 00:41:16:27
Susan
But I'll be happy for however long I am here, then I just have to say I get to savor at least the next 6 hours, at least as long to my knowledge. So we'll see what happens. Yeah.

00:41:17:00 - 00:41:39:09
Sasha
Right, Right. It's funny. It's those tantric qualities of life, right? That can really, no matter what, plug us back into it. It gets us out of wherever our head may be. And it just reminds us that it is only on a moment to moment basis. Right? Which is the crux of of Buddhism in mindfulness. So that's very, very interesting.

00:41:39:09 - 00:42:05:10
Sasha
I have to ask you also, I also moved to many houses as young as a young child. And I think that for kids who grow up on the move, living in multiple locations, moving every year, be they Army brat or just for whatever reason, I feel like children who are constantly moving develop a very unique set of sensibilities.

00:42:05:10 - 00:42:06:12
Sasha
Would you agree?

00:42:06:14 - 00:42:37:24
Susan
absolutely. I remember when we lived in Omaha and this big old Dutch type house and something kept moving near my bed every morning and I was terrified. And my sister Kathy had a terrible dream where she screamed so loudly she woke up the neighbors on both sides. And after that, the thing wasn't there anymore. And I told my mother years later that this thing would come and pace right next to my bedside.

00:42:37:26 - 00:42:56:25
Susan
And she looked at me and she said, my gosh, They used to visit me to. Wow. Of course we'd never talk about it at the time, but it was it was a big old, you know, you think, No, it was scary. Like it was scary.

00:42:56:28 - 00:43:05:09
Sasha
Has that creature come back again in your adult life that you know of for you or any of your family? Or do you think that it's gone for good?

00:43:05:16 - 00:43:17:26
Susan
It came back once. It came back once when I was in Seattle with my first husband. It was on the bed and we had to ask it to leave.

00:43:17:29 - 00:43:20:14
Sasha
He saw it as well.

00:43:20:16 - 00:43:21:08
Susan
He felt that, yeah.

00:43:21:08 - 00:43:35:29
Sasha
So this is not a night terror or sleep? No, no, no, no. It's something that's happening on your wall. You're half awake, half asleep now. Wow. And and so the two of you asked it to leave and did it.

00:43:36:01 - 00:43:48:05
Susan
Well, he felt it first. He said, I'm. I'm having a really bad dream, but I think I'm awake and I think it's here. And I said, I think I know what it is. And he said, and I don't want to tell you about it because you'll be scared. And I said, I think I know what it is. Let's just tell it to leave.

00:43:48:11 - 00:43:51:16
Susan
Go. And it left. But it was definitely scary.

00:43:51:16 - 00:44:15:00
Sasha
That's terrifying yeah, I'd say it's a good thing for people to know. I think though, that's like the first step. If, if you know, I think that anything from the other side it seems to me and again I'm not the end all be all expert I don't claim to know 100%, but it does seem to me that that putting down boundaries right is is the first step.

00:44:15:00 - 00:44:19:15
Sasha
And more often than not, they will leave. You know.

00:44:19:17 - 00:44:21:07
Susan
Have you had a presence like that since?

00:44:21:08 - 00:44:47:14
Sasha
I have and I have on multiple occasions throughout my life had to ask things to leave. And fortunately, they always have. I've never had something. I've never had to call anybody in. But I think that I think it's an interesting thing because as a kid who moves around a lot, you I know. I certainly do. And I'm curious if you did the same thing every time you'd move into a new house, you would really go out of your way.

00:44:47:14 - 00:45:07:00
Sasha
I feel like to feel what was in that house to get comfortable that you could sleep and play and relax completely. So did you do you recall doing the same thing? And do you still have that sense of places now when you when you enter something or explore a house?

00:45:07:02 - 00:45:28:09
Susan
Well, I think as a visitor, we never really felt like we lived anywhere. You know, because we knew we wouldn't be there long. It wasn't really our house. We didn't really have a place there. So I always felt like we explored it from a very outside point of view, maybe open if you're there all the time, you don't necessarily notice it.

00:45:28:11 - 00:45:50:01
Susan
So our feelings about it were, I think we were willing to give it a chance to be friendly. But I remember one time too, we were at Bonnie Brae. My grandparents were both gone working, and it was Cynthia and I and my brother and maybe a cousin. And from the basement, from the furnace where we think the underground slaves have been captor or stayed or whatever.

00:45:50:03 - 00:46:11:00
Susan
We heard the most ominous what sounds like an evil thing cackling. And we were so scared it's getting dusk. I think it was springtime or maybe it was early summer and we were waiting by the side of the road for them to come up, you know, in the car. We didn't want to be in the house at all.

00:46:11:03 - 00:46:31:28
Susan
My grandfather got out of the car. We explained to him what happened and he said, just stop it. Just stop it. Just learn to live with it. Just we went inside. Now, years later, the farm got hit by lightning, and my twin sister Cynthia, was there when the insurance adjuster was there and they were going through what was in the house.

00:46:32:01 - 00:46:50:28
Susan
And my grandfather Courtney, once told the insurance adjuster, there is something still missing. And the bean counter, the guy from the insurance company said, what I thought we have everything in your inventory. And he said, there's been a ghost here for 50 years and it's not here anymore. I think I need compensation.

00:46:51:00 - 00:46:54:10
Sasha
And did he receive compensation?

00:46:54:12 - 00:46:54:24
Sasha
No.

00:46:54:27 - 00:47:16:07
Susan
I think that was just my grandfather's Yankee way of saying he for whatever, you know, he was a man of very few words. And the fact that he would joke, we think, with the insurance adjuster, that after lightning had hit the farm, that he didn't feel the ghost there anymore. That was about as open as he'd ever get to, saying that he felt something excellent.

00:47:16:07 - 00:47:36:13
Sasha
And speaking of your grandpa parents, I have to ask you, do you share your current mother's fondness for Ouija board as devices to speak to ghosts and or do you ever use your tarot cards or any other form of divination to speak to the other side?

00:47:36:16 - 00:48:02:00
Susan
I certainly use the tarot cards to channel, especially if it's my mom, because I feel like my mom still advises all of us kids, you know, in terms of how are we going to get through this? And sometimes when I'm doing a reading for someone who's who's asking for a voice from the other side, I, I really despise this whole idea of fortune dealing with tarot cards.

00:48:02:00 - 00:48:36:12
Susan
So I always tell people this is really about identifying archetypes that, you know the answers inside. It's identifying who present so you can embrace your future, blah, blah, blah. But when someone comes to me and they're definitely trying to speak to someone who's passed and they have unresolved questions, I find that the cards are amazing, only reflective and not necessarily of what I want them to say, but of what is of comfort in the moment, not only to myself, but to the parents as well.

00:48:36:12 - 00:48:58:27
Sasha
Wow, wow, wow, wow. I think that's beautiful that you actually use you use the cards to communicate, to have conversations with with people who have crossed over. And and again, that's it's a it's a comforting way to, you know, know as long as we remember people, they're never truly gone. Right.

00:48:59:00 - 00:49:21:15
Susan
I love and, you know, we miss their voices so much. You know, we we miss what they would say now, whether it's our energies in venting their response. But sometimes the cards come out with the exact response to a question. So, you know, you just take it on face value of what it says to you. I mean, does that happen with you, Sasha, when you do a tarot reading with a specific.

00:49:21:15 - 00:49:42:03
Sasha
Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, I talk to like I talk to my grandmother all of the time and I feel like I invoke her energy all of the time when I'm doing things that we would do together or delighted in something the way that we would delight. So I am I would feel I do feel like I'm in constant, fairly regular communication with her.

00:49:42:06 - 00:50:03:14
Sasha
So we don't necessarily have a conversation with her through the tarot, although I have in the past had people when I would do professional readings, people would from time to time ask me about someone who had crossed over and I would always say, you know, I would never call myself a medium, but I'll I'll pull a card and tell you what the message of that card is.

00:50:03:14 - 00:50:25:02
Sasha
And let's say that that message is from the person who's crossed over. And it's always something lovely and it's always seems to have been meaningful. But yeah, it's not I don't I don't use the cards for that so much. I go directly to the source. I just like they're right there.

00:50:25:05 - 00:50:25:16
Sasha
But I love.

00:50:25:16 - 00:50:52:13
Susan
The synchronicity of your father's name showing up. I mean, there's, there's a is beyond our understanding of philosophy sometimes about how these I mean, never in a million years Eric was the most pragmatic, no nonsense artist I'd ever met. If you were to tell me that after Eric passed, he'd be sending messages to Cynthia and I. And it's only when Cynthia and I are talking, you know, it hasn't happened with anything else.

00:50:52:13 - 00:51:08:23
Susan
But I think Eric knows that I'm. She's safe with me and that I'll take care of her and console her. But the fact that the synchronicity of these images are coming through at a time when she's really missing him and wondering is he still around, has been really reassuring.

00:51:08:25 - 00:51:13:19
Sasha
So do you have any other spooky stories you'd like to share with us?

00:51:13:22 - 00:51:18:10
Susan
gosh, I did write another one down. Here it is. Okay. It's so good.

00:51:18:10 - 00:51:20:05
Sasha
We love funny. We love. I do.

00:51:20:05 - 00:51:22:15
Sasha
I know.

00:51:22:17 - 00:51:44:22
Susan
I was doing a play in Glens Falls, New York, which is near Lake George. And, you know, Lake George has this amazing amusement boardwalk which was started by someone I think named Charles Wood. And when I went up there for the housing, the very, very nice patrons at the theater said, Lucky you, you get to stay in our beautiful mansion.

00:51:44:24 - 00:51:58:23
Susan
We're actually going to be in New York in our apartments and blah blah, but you get to stay here. And I went, my God, I can't wait. Because, you know, my grandparents from wasn't that far away. And I'd heard about this mansion for years, and I was so excited to stay there by myself.

00:51:58:25 - 00:52:00:02
Sasha
You know.

00:52:00:04 - 00:52:25:13
Susan
I myself. Sasha. So it's yes, it's a big, beautiful house, two stories, all these bedrooms and stuff. But I was really unnerved because, you know, you come home, literally the halls are echoing. Every room is huge. You have to turn on lights in every room. And we were doing a really fun little play called Leaving Iowa, where I played a mom and a car.

00:52:25:13 - 00:52:27:16
Sasha
I was going.

00:52:27:18 - 00:52:49:18
Susan
Nothing serious, nothing like lady. Our angel Blanche, a boy I know is mom and a cardigan. So I would come home pretty light hearted. And then the minute I would come in and just I'd really almost start to panic just because it was big and scary and all that sort of stuff. And when I would go upstairs to close my door, I could hear footsteps in the hallway and I'd going.

00:52:49:20 - 00:52:55:05
Sasha
We're who are they? Are they happy I'm here? Why did they tell me so?

00:52:55:08 - 00:53:10:13
Susan
Well, thank goodness. Another actress in the show, Stefanie, was going, you know where I'm staying? It's like there's a baby and I can't sleep and everything. Well, I got on the phone with the patron, someone. you know what? There's another actress in the show, and she's so lonely. And I just know it'd be such a big ask.

00:53:10:17 - 00:53:15:19
Susan
You're so wonderful if she could just stay here with me and I'm not sure whatever. So Stefanie came over.

00:53:15:24 - 00:53:16:06
Sasha
I did.

00:53:16:06 - 00:53:16:15
Susan
Not.

00:53:16:15 - 00:53:18:13
Sasha
Tell her. Yeah.

00:53:18:16 - 00:53:21:16
Susan
I was thrilled to have her there, but also is thrilled to have just another living.

00:53:21:16 - 00:53:23:01
Sasha
Person in the house.

00:53:23:01 - 00:53:35:02
Susan
Just so she comes up, she goes, She goes in and, you know, everything's quiet. And then I just heard the same footsteps. But they were so much lighter. But they stopped right at my door.

00:53:35:04 - 00:53:37:21
Sasha
Did you open the door good?

00:53:37:24 - 00:53:57:20
Susan
No, I didn't. But that was the last time they were there. But it was sort of like, really? I mean, I felt like the ghost was going, really? You had to get back up. But it was like one of my it was so wonderful to be in this fantastic, beautiful dream of a house and then how it changed.

00:53:57:22 - 00:54:10:28
Susan
And then you can see what they say, spooky mansions and something dark in every corner. And these people were so lovely to let me stay in that. I mean, I was driving their fancy car, we're staying in their big fancy house. I was living a life. I didn't have.

00:54:11:01 - 00:54:13:11
Sasha
That except for the ghost.

00:54:13:14 - 00:54:47:09
Sasha
So I have to ask you, just this makes me think of of like the house on Haunted Hill and all of those classic, iconic, wonderful ghost stories. But what part? I know what my answer is. What part of house do you find the spookiest? Like if you're in a big empty haunted house, which part of it And I know that that that includes many terrifying places, but where to you is the most terrifying of a house?

00:54:47:12 - 00:55:13:10
Susan
Hallways, Hallways, you know, maybe was the house in Glen Falls. But I know the staircase in Fremont. The staircase in Kittery Point is places where people are traveling through their energies in transit and it's cold. I never like in big, lovely, warm rooms with a fireplace or even a bedroom so much. But definitely for me, hallways. What about.

00:55:13:10 - 00:55:42:07
Sasha
You? Bathrooms terrify me, back rooms terrify me. And especially. Especially what's behind shower curtains. you know, right now, just thinking about it. And then even if I'm like, and I can remember being little and in the shower, and then when you're actually in the shower, what's the next terrifying place is like, what's in the drain or what?

00:55:42:09 - 00:56:04:23
Sasha
Yeah, my grandmother's house, we had it was like, I guess ahead of its time. We had like a giant rain. Like it would come straight down on you and I would look up and it looked like an eyeball looking, it was just scare me. I feel like it's where you're the most vulnerable. And when people are quite visible and also where they're the most prized.

00:56:04:23 - 00:56:06:13
Sasha
It's.

00:56:06:16 - 00:56:11:12
Susan
Yes, Yes. The last place you expect another person.

00:56:11:14 - 00:56:14:25
Sasha
my goodness. Well, on that note, now that I'm completely.

00:56:14:25 - 00:56:18:12
Sasha
Chill.

00:56:18:14 - 00:56:22:21
Sasha
Susan, thank you so much for joining us.

00:56:22:24 - 00:56:25:29
Susan
My pleasure. It was fun to get scared and think of all the scary.

00:56:25:29 - 00:56:50:18
Sasha
Things with you. I'd love to have you return. I know you work on historical fiction and and writing historical fiction. You're often sharing energy with people and channeling people who who did live these big and rich lives. So I'd love to have you on in the future just to talk about what it's like to to channel energies as a writer, because we didn't even scratch the surface of that.

00:56:50:21 - 00:56:58:03
Susan
Yes. And I'd love to talk about the appearances of some of these characters who have come back to visit other people, too.

00:56:58:06 - 00:57:24:27
Sasha
All right. We'll wait. Who created Season one is thank you so much for joining us at the fire company. Thank you so much for being part of Ghost Stories by the Fire. Do you have a spooky story, near-death experience or supernatural happenings you'd like to share? I'd love to hear it. Submit your story to Sasha Graham dot com with ghost stories by the fire in the subject line.

00:57:24:29 - 00:57:57:03
Sasha
You might just wind up on this podcast and if you want to support it and keep the ghost stories coming, head on over to Sasha Grammy.com to check out my books and tarot decks which are available for purchase at your favorite bookseller. The Ghost Stories by the Fire theme song is titled Lovely from the original motion picture score of The Deeper You Dig a film about the lengths a mother will go to to find her daughter's killer, even if that means accepting a curse from Beyond the grave.

00:57:57:06 - 00:58:12:09
Sasha
The film and song were created by The Addams Family with lead vocals by Zelda Adams Stream The Deeper You Dig Amazon Prime or Tubi. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I'm saving you a seat.

00:58:12:11 - 00:58:13:06
Lovely
At the fire.